What did Arab militaries get wrong?

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Nodeo-Franvier
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What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 27 Nov 2021 13:43

How can they get consistently beaten by Israel? The Egyptian military was trained by Britain for over 70 years and still didn't become professional until at least 1973. Their command seem worse than the mid 19th century Austrian army.

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wm
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by wm » 27 Nov 2021 14:51

It was a (huge) civilizational difference.
Exaggerating a little it was semi-literate peasants versus educated, sophisticated people.
The Jews were mostly middle-class folks.

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by LineDoggie » 30 Nov 2021 03:02

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
27 Nov 2021 13:43
How can they get consistently beaten by Israel? The Egyptian military was trained by Britain for over 70 years and still didn't become professional until at least 1973. Their command seem worse than the mid 19th century Austrian army.
Lack of a trained NCO corps?
Officer cadres who thought themselves higher humans than their cattle men, Officers who led from the rear
An Insha'allah Attitude to training standards, marksmanship, maintenance, tactical knowledge, field sanitation, morale, etc.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

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wm
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by wm » 01 Dec 2021 20:16

Feudalism against modern nationalism (and its inherent cohesion).
Feudalism is a state of mind - it can't be eradicated by giving the peasants tanks and assault rifles.

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Kingfish
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by Kingfish » 30 Dec 2021 11:57

wm wrote:
27 Nov 2021 14:51
It was a (huge) civilizational difference.
Exaggerating a little it was semi-literate peasants versus educated, sophisticated people.
The Jews were mostly middle-class folks.
Change Arab to Russian and Jews to Germans and the same should apply, no?
History doesn't think so.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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wm
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by wm » 30 Dec 2021 14:58

Although the Russian culture (including the notion of patriotism) was well developed and modern even in the 19th century. Actually, it was and is one of the greatest on this planet.
On the other hand, the Arabic one is somewhat "feudal" even today. As illustrated by the fact that slavery was abolished in some Arab countries as late as 1970.

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Kingfish
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by Kingfish » 31 Dec 2021 12:39

But none of that translates into any tangible effect on the battlefield, and it certainly doesn't apply in the case of the M/E conflicts.

Case in point: When viewed at the tactical level the Egyptian army that fought in the Yom Kippur war was every bit the equal to the Israeli army. It was when you get up in the chain of command that you begin to see the disparities, and it was this difference that the Israelis took advantage of.
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Dec 2021 14:42

The Arab armies during the colonial and mandate eras were not up to date, full conventional armies equipped for expeditionary warfare. Like Israel, their modern development, particularly of officers, only really began post-WWII. All have also since taken their eye off their profession due to heavy involvement of their officer corps in internal politics.

Israel had some advantages. As wm rather gracelessly points out above, many founding Israelis were sophisticated, educated people already contributing fully to modern western civilization and with all the relative advantages this conveys. Israel has been subsidised publicly and privately by the USA since its foundation and has had ready access to the latest US military technology for most of that period. This also gives Israel a significant qualitative advantage. Its system of military training also gives it a disproportionally large mobilizable population compared with its Arab neighbours. Towards the end of the 1948 fighting Israel could field over 100,000 people (not necessarily well trained or armed), whereas the Arab Legion left facing it had one tenth that number. It was at this point that most of the original Palestinian refugees were created. Israel also has two big sticks to wave that the neighbouring Arabs do not - nuclear weapons and the possibility of having their irons pulled out of the fire by the USA (as happened following the heavy initial aircraft losses in 1973.)

The difficulties and losses Israel endured during its interventions in Lebanon imply that the ordinary Israeli soldier is not enormously superior on the ground against even lightly armed Arab opponents. It is the technological back-up available to him that is decisive. This require a highly educated population, which Israel has. And, of course, Israeli military leadership at all levels has usually proved of higher quality.

The basic human material the Arabs are working with is not much different from Israel's, but Israel seems to have clear cultural advantages that transfer onto the field of battle sufficiently to more than compensate for any numerical disadvantage.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by harry2 » 05 Feb 2022 14:07

wm wrote:
27 Nov 2021 14:51
It was a (huge) civilizational difference.
Exaggerating a little it was semi-literate peasants versus educated, sophisticated people.
The Jews were mostly middle-class folks.
...I would say cultural difference....whatever--but there was a difference
1. the Arabs had many advantages;
--greatly outnumbered the Israelis in every category
--look at a map--Israel is tiny
- and ''surrounded'''
--with a narrow front = easily cut
--yet, the Israelis still won--many times
2. let's look at the US Revolutionary War and the Vietnam War= the ''peasants'' won ....the US was super ''sophisticated'' compared to the North Vietnamese ....the US had many and great advantages -yet they didn't win in the Vietnam War
3. motivation---a mediocre weapon in trained, motivated hands is better than a great weapon in untrained, unmotivated hands =the Arabs were like the Italians in WW2 = not motivated, etc
4. god forbid we speak the truth on a forum, but some cultures are successful while others are not = some are industrious, learning, disciplined, etc etc while others are not

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wm
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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by wm » 05 Feb 2022 23:19

Vietnam isn't an especially good example.
It's an old (some say 5000 years old), matured culture with a history full of heroic wars against foreign invaders.
Even more, Vietnam was supported by two superpowers. Those Dvinas and MiG-21s didn't grow on trees.

Numbers meant nothing if the numbers didn't know how to fight on a modern battlefield.

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 06 Feb 2022 19:24

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
27 Nov 2021 13:43
The Egyptian military was trained by Britain for over 70 years and still didn't become professional until at least 1973.
Trained for what, though? Internal security in support of British interests and - to a lesser degree - AA defense of the Canal. That was pretty much it ... certainly not mobile warfare in arid or mountainous terrain, or urban warfare, or river crossings, or operations of an IADS, or CAS in support of mobile warfare, etc. which is what they faced against the IDF.

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by stevebecker » 23 Feb 2022 02:00

Mate,
"Trained for what, though? Internal security in support of British interests and - to a lesser degree - AA defense of the Canal. That was pretty much it ... certainly not mobile warfare in arid or mountainous terrain, or urban warfare, or river crossings, or operations of an IADS, or CAS in support of mobile warfare, etc. which is what they faced against the IDF"

I am sorry but the Egyptians were trained to to the job they had to fight. Which like the Italian Army in 1940, but they lacked the main movivation of fighting that war.
They were well equipt with weapons, they knew how to use them, they knew there enermy (they fought them in 56 and again in 67), so it was not weapons and tatics that beat them
The main problem was there lack of ability to combine all three into a fighting force.
As you say there Air and ground assits could not co-op, unlike the Jews, who had these down pat and were willing to change there tatics as the war went on, while the Arab Armies could not ajust.
I am sorry but the 73 war was just as bad, while they carried out the first days advance well, they could not go on with the fight, and could not ajust to the Jews changing there tatics.
I am sorry but the Arab Armies will never beat a western Army, only small bands of motived men, banded together to achive a small objective.
We just finished the war in Afganistan, where again the two Anti US states helped our enemy beat us, as when I was in Vietnam 50 years ago.
The war was kept going by the Iran and Pakistan, until we gave up, Vietnamazion or Afganistanazion never works when they had no movivation to do so?
We never lean

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by daveshoup2MD » 24 Feb 2022 04:10

stevebecker wrote:
23 Feb 2022 02:00
Mate,
"Trained for what, though? Internal security in support of British interests and - to a lesser degree - AA defense of the Canal. That was pretty much it ... certainly not mobile warfare in arid or mountainous terrain, or urban warfare, or river crossings, or operations of an IADS, or CAS in support of mobile warfare, etc. which is what they faced against the IDF"
It was a specific response to the point the OP made, that the Egyptian Army "had been trained by the British for 70 years," no more, no less.

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Re: What did Arab militaries get wrong?

Post by stevebecker » 06 Apr 2022 21:40

Mate,

While your right the Egyptian Army was trained by the British along with the Jordanains for many years.
But after the 67 war, or more importantly, after the 56 invasion, British training had been replaced with Russian training.
The Egyptian Army that fought in 73 was a Russian trained Army with Russian Tactics and Russian advisers and equipment.
The British had limited imput in the Egyptian Army, while other Arab states still sent there sons to Sandhurst, Egypt (as far as I know) did not
The 73 war has always been put up as a Great Arab victory, which is bulls-t
While they achived great things in tricking the Jews and gaining a foot hold in Sinai that was it, yes the Germans did the same in 1941 in Russia that after that what happened.
IF the Arab states want to see the 73 war as the best they could do, then they as always will go nowhere.
The days of Great islamic states is gone, no more Sala el din, until they stand on there own, which they are capable of doing, like Turkey and yes Pakistan, even if they do still buy from the west.
Again money is not everything, look at Saudi
Religion stuffed up the west for hundreds of years, but they broke the circle from the 1600 to 1800's, islam is still to break that circle and stuck in the religion and state not state and religion.

Cheers

S.B

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