Creation of GDR a Soviet War-Crime ?

[wildboar]

Infact East Germany was artificial state created for specific purpose.

Stalin was ethnic russian residing in state of Georgia.He was hardcore Russian Imperialist.The first aim of his foreign policy was to restore the boundries of old russian empire.
Soviet troops entered german just to add to land grabbing policy of stalin few german territories.
Stalin and Beria were responsible for Expulsion of Ethnic germans from eastern europe it was there idea and they implemented it.
Stalin sent German pows and civilians to Gulag Slave Labour Camp in Siberia.
Soviet troops commited mass atrocities against german civilians.
Soviet troops also destroyed food stock in areas they occupied resulting in mass-starvation in germany.
Soviet troops conducted massive looting of civilian property and looters were never punished
Soviet troops illegally removed industrial equipmnents form soviet occupied germany which created massive un-employment for germans of soviet zone
Stalin intended to create a soviet style communist state in soviet occupied zone from day one when soviet troops entered germany as NVKD murdered Anti Communist Anti Facist Conservative opponents of Nazi's-

Shortly after the war, when American and British secret service agents attempt to contact the Germans on the Vermehren list, they learn to their horror that nearly all of them have been killed. A generation later, it is discovered that Philby had passed on the list to his Soviet controllers

Source-http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Nemesis ... r%20Philby

Stalin created GDR as communist government of it destroyed all evidence of soviet war-crimes and supressed all anti soviet political activists.
Creation of GDR was a soviet war crime against german people as it was created to enslave german people to russian imperialism and they were slaves for nearly 35 years and its primary aim to supress all german opposition to soviet war-crimes and to legalise all soviet missdeeds in germany

[Caldric]

Wildboar has it occurred to you that Soviet Army entered Germany to defeat a nation that invaded it and destroyed most of Western Russia, Ukraine, Belo, etc. ?

Not for Imperialistic gain but to destroy a belligerent and aggressive neighbor who waged total war against them. I do not think land grabbing was top of the Soviet list in 1941. I think Stalin was a criminal, and Beria was a criminal also and would be shot in the back of the head in the 1950’s, however I think you are way off the mark with your imperialistic theory.

[witness]

Stalin was ethnic russian residing in state of Georgia

What ..???

Soviet troops commited mass atrocities against german civilians

Considering what German troops did against Soviet civilians the limited scope of the crimes committed by the Red Army soldiers (many of whom lost their relatives and friends killed by the Germans ) is quite suprising ..

[David Thompson]

wildboar -- What provision of international law do you think the creation of the DDR/GDR violated?

[witness]

The Creation of DDR was pretty much a knee jerk response to the creation of FDR in the Western zones of occupation.
The Cold War already began.
Besides -after the horrendous German invasion which caused tremendous casualties and huge destructions it is no suprise that Stalin sought to create a buffer puppet state to prevent any futher aggression.
What country would not try to do the same ?

[KalaVelka]

Wittnes, is it so hard to understand (again) that this topic is about Soviet crimes? Every time when somebody starts topic with WAllied/Soviet crimes, couple of guys starts to tell to others that how "germans did the same and even much more". P*sses me off! IF the topic is about ALLIED/SOVIET WARCRIMES then we should talk about them, not about Germanys crimes.

Considering what German troops did against Soviet civilians the limited scope of the crimes committed by the Red Army soldiers (many of whom lost their relatives and friends killed by the Germans ) is quite suprising ..

[Oleg Grigoryev]

WB -whatever you are smoking - stop it. http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25761

Soviet troops entered german just to add to land grabbing policy of stalin few german territories

and I was under impression that they entered Germany chasing German troops that attacked USSR …

Stalin and Beria were responsible for Expulsion of Ethnic germans from eastern europe it was there idea and they implemented it.

it was idea supported by Western Allies, even more so in Czechoslovakia it were Czechs who did the expulsion. But when again when it comes to expulsion form Ukraine, Russia etc – I guess Red Army did have part in it.

Stalin sent German pows and civilians to Gulag Slave Labour Camp in Siberia.

a) POWs wren ort sent in Gulag
b) most of the Gulag camps were not in Siberia
c) What so horrible about Siberia?
d) Number of civilians sent to USSR was not exactly overwhelming.

Soviet troops also destroyed food stock in areas they occupied resulting in mass-starvation in germany.

Actually you got it backward USSR was importing food into Germany.

Soviet troops conducted massive looting of civilian property and looters were never punished

Just German looters were never punished for looting Soviet property.

Soviet troops illegally removed industrial equipments form soviet occupied germany which created massive un-employment for germans of soviet zone

actually it was done in accordance with agreement with western allies, who also promised to deliver sizable chunk of Western German industry to USSR as part of repatriation program.

Stalin intended to create a soviet style communist state in soviet occupied zone from day one when soviet troops entered germany as NVKD murdered Anti Communist Anti Facist Conservative opponents of Nazi's

– lie.

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Wittnes, is it so hard to understand (again) that this topic is about Soviet crimes? Every time when somebody starts topic with WAllied/Soviet crimes, couple of guys starts to tell to others that how "germans did the same and even much more". P*sses me off! IF the topic is about ALLIED/SOVIET WARCRIMES then we should talk about them, not about Germanys crimes.

Considering what German troops did against Soviet civilians the limited scope of the crimes committed by the Red Army soldiers (many of whom lost their relatives and friends killed by the Germans ) is quite suprising ..

KalaVelka is to so hard to understand (again) that German war crimes and Soviet war crimes are inherently connetced since the first ones prompted the second ones -hence you can hardly mention second without mentioning first -cause and consequnces.

[Roberto]

Wittnes, is it so hard to understand (again) that this topic is about Soviet crimes? Every time when somebody starts topic with WAllied/Soviet crimes, couple of guys starts to tell to others that how "germans did the same and even much more". P*sses me off! IF the topic is about ALLIED/SOVIET WARCRIMES then we should talk about them, not about Germanys crimes.

I agree.

Wildboar's question may be as pertinent as the extinct "German Democratic Republic" was democratic, but let's stick to the topic.

[witness]

Wittnes, is it so hard to understand (again) that this topic is about Soviet crimes? Every time when somebody starts topic with WAllied/Soviet crimes, couple of guys starts to tell to others that how "germans did the same and even much more". P*sses me off! IF the topic is about ALLIED/SOVIET WARCRIMES then we should talk about them, not about Germanys crimes.

Considering what German troops did against Soviet civilians the limited scope of the crimes committed by the Red Army soldiers (many of whom lost their relatives and friends killed by the Germans ) is quite suprising ..

I don't know what pisses you off and frankly I don't care much.
You can as well try to read wild boar's post where he writes :

Stalin was ethnic russian residing in state of Georgia.He was hardcore Russian Imperialist.The first aim of his foreign policy was to restore the boundries of old russian empire.

So it could be understood from this that the Red Army entered Germany because of the "Russian Imperialist " policies and not because Germany attacked the USSR , which is absolutely ridiculous .Naturally I objected to this .
Also wildboar wrote

Soviet troops commited mass atrocities against german civilians

The Soviet atrocities can not be considered in vacuum without the previous German ones which by far exceeded them qualitevly as well as quantitevly.

[Caldric]

I think the issue is that German crimes were mindless with little to no reason for them to carry them out, no history of being treated wrongly by Russians and other people of the USSR. No prosecution that I know of from WWI, since Russia surrendered to Germany and was forced to sign a much more humiliating treaty then Versailles. There is no basis for the hate of the USSR except through propaganda.

While we all know the Red Army was not a gentlemen’s Army by any means, it was harsh military life, which would be hard on any enemy, however when they see what the German's did to their own nation this basic harshness of the Red Army man is turned into unbridled hate. You can not discuss Soviet Solder's crimes against Germany without answering the basic question of "why?” I think it is obvious why.

I remember in Beevors book the Fall of Berlin about one Soviet Soldier asking why would the German's invade them to take what little they had when they had so much already? Why would they destroy their poor villages when the average German had wealth beyond imagining?

Basically why did they destroy so many of our lives when they had it so good?

So basically it is my opinion that most of Red Army atrocities against Germany are directly linked to German treatment of Soviet people during 1941-1944. To discuss one without the other is like removing most of the History of WWII and just talking about what bad parts you choose while ignoring the reason of why. As witness stated Red Army crimes are not in a vacuum. Especially when it is worded so twisted as Wildboar makes it out to be.

[KalaVelka]

Yeah, some things are linked to others but some not.

German war crimes and Soviet war crimes are inherently connetced since the first ones prompted the second ones

So who prompted RedArmy at Katyn? Again Germans fault? No i dont think so.

How do you know who started atrocites at easternfront? Both sides did them, but who was the first?

And IF Germans started it, it is right that Soviets continue it? If Germans killed 6 million jews, then lets say Finland has right to do same?

[Oleg Grigoryev]

Yeah, some things are linked to others but some not.

German war crimes and Soviet war crimes are inherently connetced since the first ones prompted the second ones

So who prompted RedArmy at Katyn? Again Germans fault? No i dont think so.

How do you know who started atrocites at easternfront? Both sides did them, but who was the first?

And IF Germans started it, it is right that Soviets continue it? If Germans killed 6 million jews, then lets say Finland has right to do same?

Katyn was not done by the REd Army. it was done by NKVD. as for "who started it" considering pre-war German gudelines that pretty much say "it is ok to do it" the question is very simple to answer.

you remarck oabout jwes and Finns is memangless - if you wanted proper analogy it should be what would Finns do if Germans had killed 6 millions of them with no regard or sex, age,social stustus etc...

[KalaVelka]

you remarck oabout jwes and Finns is memangless - if you wanted proper analogy it should be what would Finns do if Germans had killed 6 millions of them with no regard or sex, age,social stustus etc..

Maybe but would it be OK that Finns would kill 6 million Germans then?

as for "who started it" considering pre-war German gudelines that pretty much say "it is ok to do it" the question is very simple to answer

But who started it at the front?

But as i have mentioned before, this should be about GDR and Stalin. I just wanted to say that we should keep conversation in subject this time.

[Davey Boy]

I don't think it's possible to discuss how the Soviets enlsaved Eastern Europe without mentioning why they did it.

The creation of the DDR was an attempt to create a buffer between the Soviet Union and the West.

Wildboar, do you think it was unreasonable for the Soviets to be paranoid after the Germans destroyed western Russian and killed over 20 million people???