The end of tanks as we know it?
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
The Russians brought in the BMPT Terminator to the Donbass recently. Quite odd as they could have used these tank support vehicles three months ago! This is supposed to be a superior anti-infantry vehicle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqHPOeW4Wn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqHPOeW4Wn4
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
Yes, quite odd. Is it known how many of these BMPTs are fielded? Out of how many available?
Its survivability against ATGMs is higher compared to the usual BMT, BMD, BTR and other types which are one hit toast. In urban areas, heavily infested with ATGM teams waiting widely dispersed on the roofs/upper floors of several multistorey bulidings and swift moving to other locations they will probably fare as good as tanks. This will result in many destroyed verhicles but fewer crew losses. In combination with systematic use of artillery these vehicles provide probably the most personnel friendly tactic available. Add anti air systems, gun based?, against malicious birds aka drones and they'll have a good allround solution.
Its survivability against ATGMs is higher compared to the usual BMT, BMD, BTR and other types which are one hit toast. In urban areas, heavily infested with ATGM teams waiting widely dispersed on the roofs/upper floors of several multistorey bulidings and swift moving to other locations they will probably fare as good as tanks. This will result in many destroyed verhicles but fewer crew losses. In combination with systematic use of artillery these vehicles provide probably the most personnel friendly tactic available. Add anti air systems, gun based?, against malicious birds aka drones and they'll have a good allround solution.
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
I do not know. Videos of BMPT have surfaced from the ukraine moving around, and one in a firing line. If wiki is accurate this is not new technology and there are 300 units. The Russians/DRP separatists fought the battle of Mariupol with T-64 and T-72. The Russians have favored extreme use of firepower for urban warfare over use of armor/inf. The below video has KA-52 Ground attack helicopters, SU-25 Ground attack fighters, and BMPT in action :PunctuationHorror wrote: ↑27 May 2022, 12:29Yes, quite odd. Is it known how many of these BMPTs are fielded? Out of how many available?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMPT_Terminator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzDPVBAFFt0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBgqianGeI
Russians have created a documentary film about the city they destroyed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPLxoVhSOsw&t=68s
- John Hilly
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
Nothing new as in itself buot worth reading...
https://theprint.in/opinion/tanks-will- ... ne/973703/
https://theprint.in/opinion/tanks-will- ... ne/973703/
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
A large number of T-62M tanks has been spotted moving around in the Ukraine for days now. It is likely that these obsolete tanks are being delivered to the DRP militas (who have been using T-72, T-64 and captured Ukrainian tanks) to be used as assault guns for urban combat.
https://twitter.com/rhoint_en/status/15 ... 2Fpage-221
https://twitter.com/rhoint_en/status/15 ... 2Fpage-221
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
BMPT reported to be in the Severondonesk area, it will likely be used against the Ukrainian infantry masses defending the twin cities. UK Defense ministry claims that there are 10.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... a/bmpt.htm
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/15 ... eshow.html
BMPT column
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCMIFbreaj0
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1525 ... wsrc%5Etfw
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... a/bmpt.htm
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/15 ... eshow.html
BMPT column
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCMIFbreaj0
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1525 ... wsrc%5Etfw
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
Besides BMPT, given prior Russian tactics in cities they will likely bring in Thermobarbaric MLRS and UR-77 engineering vehicles to support the armor used in the assault-gun role.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bge7BvUmD_4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ObduzHHO8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bge7BvUmD_4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ObduzHHO8
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
The use of tanks depends on the country involved. If their defense equipment is primitive then deploying tanks makes sense. If it is close to equal then tank threats need to be neutralized first. Too much is made of drones.
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
Tanks are useful when the opponent has /uses tanks . If not (as in Afghanistan ) they are only a wast.
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
I don't think the era of tanks is over. What is crucial, as always, is how they are used, the training, experience and morale of the crews, the quality of the tanks themselves and how many can be brought to the fight.
Can see them playing a decisive role in Ukraine
Can see them playing a decisive role in Ukraine
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
BMPT supporting tank movements in exercises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwH_GpbfKHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwH_GpbfKHs
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
Brig. Gen. Volodymyr Karpenko, Ukraine's land forces command logistics commander:
"So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems."
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... on-weapons
https://thepressunited.com/updates/kiev ... ns-losses/
Russian MOD claims as of 6/18 are 3613 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, which makes the Russians overclaim claimed Ukrainian losses by 1,900 units. (1700 tanks and IFV lost)
As expected, the Oryx blog under counts claimed Ukrainian losses by 306 tanks, 1,100 IFV/APC, 603 Artillery systems.
I think the tactical environment right now suggests that the concept of rapid operational maneuver with massed tanks, like in WW2 is highly problematic. Artillery, Airpower, and missiles are the most potent weapons for inflicting losses. Tanks are now more akin to infantry support weapons and have to be used carefully. What you see right now with the Russians is the use of exponentially superior firepower to slowly attrit Ukrainian formations on a daily basis supplemented with small advances, leading to a glacial but consistent territorial gain.
"So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems."
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... on-weapons
https://thepressunited.com/updates/kiev ... ns-losses/
Russian MOD claims as of 6/18 are 3613 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, which makes the Russians overclaim claimed Ukrainian losses by 1,900 units. (1700 tanks and IFV lost)
As expected, the Oryx blog under counts claimed Ukrainian losses by 306 tanks, 1,100 IFV/APC, 603 Artillery systems.
I think the tactical environment right now suggests that the concept of rapid operational maneuver with massed tanks, like in WW2 is highly problematic. Artillery, Airpower, and missiles are the most potent weapons for inflicting losses. Tanks are now more akin to infantry support weapons and have to be used carefully. What you see right now with the Russians is the use of exponentially superior firepower to slowly attrit Ukrainian formations on a daily basis supplemented with small advances, leading to a glacial but consistent territorial gain.
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
I disagree with your point. The basic argument is, that until now, we have not seen proper use of tanks on Russian side. They are trying to use the tanks, but they are far from rational use of tanks. At first I would like to point out the lack of any kind of security of tank units.Cult Icon wrote: ↑18 Jun 2022, 13:32Brig. Gen. Volodymyr Karpenko, Ukraine's land forces command logistics commander:
"So, we have lost approximately 50 percent. … Approximately 1,300 infantry fighting vehicles have been lost, 400 tanks, 700 artillery systems."
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org ... on-weapons
https://thepressunited.com/updates/kiev ... ns-losses/
Russian MOD claims as of 6/18 are 3613 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, which makes the Russians overclaim claimed Ukrainian losses by 1,900 units. (1700 tanks and IFV lost)
As expected, the Oryx blog under counts claimed Ukrainian losses by 306 tanks, 1,100 IFV/APC, 603 Artillery systems.
I think the tactical environment right now suggests that the concept of rapid operational maneuver with massed tanks, like in WW2 is highly problematic. Artillery, Airpower, and missiles are the most potent weapons for inflicting losses. Tanks are now more akin to infantry support weapons and have to be used carefully. What you see right now with the Russians is the use of exponentially superior firepower to slowly attrit Ukrainian formations on a daily basis supplemented with small advances, leading to a glacial but consistent territorial gain.
Example:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1518889360581697538
As you can see, usual russian modus operandi, all guns straight forward, no one is covering flanks, no drone or helicopter. I have seen hundreds of such videos and photos, when attacked from flanks, it is turkey shooting. Just compare it with this photo from Vietnam:
Tanks, even massed might be used, but first of all they need proper recon tools (drones, even equipped with thermovision), cover tools - helicopters or planes of close support, infantry and must be deployed reasonably and properly. We will see whether UA army will be able to perform any better in offensives.
My point is tank is still great tool, but need to be used properly with necessary support.
Re: The end of tanks as we know it?
And when these recon tools are not available ?
Don't forget that Russia attacked with a tiny manpower and as substitution, they used a lot of fire power .
Don't forget that Russia attacked with a tiny manpower and as substitution, they used a lot of fire power .