The end of tanks as we know it?

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 25 Oct 2022 14:42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-62#Variants
Russia – At least 2,000 were inherited from the Soviet Union. 761 were in active service in 1995. 191 were in active service and 1,929 in storage as of 2000. During 2013 all the tanks of the model and its modifications were allegedly scrapped[74] – later it was found this was not true, as Russia reactivated numerous T-62s to resupply the Syrian Army.[75] In 2022, Russia sent T-62 tanks to reinforce the Southern Ukraine offensive in Zaporizhzhia Oblast during the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine; reportedly up to 600 T-62s were taken out of long-term storage.[76]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-64#Current_operators
Russia – approximately 4,000 in 1995. In 2014, Russia had approximately 2,000 which it had phased out of service and believed to be slated for destruction,[7] according to NATO[55] and the United States Department of State.[56] T-64As and T-64BVs have been used by pro-Russian forces in the 2022 invasion of Ukraine.[57]
So a speculative, unknown quantity of thousands of T-62 and T-64.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 25 Oct 2022 23:39

Every RU tank dreams of being donated to the UKR army. So many have, yet there are still those who have yet to be graciously upgraded into UKR service. But dont be sad, little RU tanks, there is still time left !

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by peeved » 26 Oct 2022 07:30

One-tank operation with tank riders against Wanker Group (a really bad band name) male members with apparently no artillery support or effective AT weapons. WW2 style shock and awe except for the drone usage and metal background... music.
https://storage2.censor.net/video/3/sss ... 156115.mp4

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by mezsat2 » 26 Oct 2022 08:57

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians still have a bunch of T-34/85s stashed in remote Siberian warehouses. Once we see these rolling out, you'll know this war is officially over.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 27 Oct 2022 00:28

mezsat2 wrote:
26 Oct 2022 08:57
I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians still have a bunch of T-34/85s stashed in remote Siberian warehouses. Once we see these rolling out, you'll know this war is officially over.
The ludricrous ! The RU would never do that while there are T-55 to be pressed into service !

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 27 Oct 2022 12:23

newly produced T-90M "Breakthrough" ("Object 188M", ROC "Proryv-3") tank performing a water crossing test.

https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_3156018

T-64BV tanks of the 1st "Slavyansk" brigade of the DPR People's Militia in the Avdiivka direction.

https://vk.com/milinfolive?w=wall-123538639_3155117

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by johnwilliamhunter » 29 Oct 2022 08:47

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Oct 2022 14:00
johnwilliamhunter wrote:
25 Oct 2022 08:01
Good photos, thanks for sharing.

It's curious how all these 'military experts' keep insisting that Russia have no weapons left and have no ability to produce any more.
With tanks, according to IISS data they had some 10,000 (T-72/T-80/T-90) in storage. The work they now have to do is to refurbish and restore them to combat ready status.

The T-62 and T-64 equipped by Separatist and Volunteer units was not in the data, presumably they have at least over 1000 T-62.

I also know that prior to the war, the Russia could produce a few hundred tanks a year.

TBH I do not trust any of these self proclaimed experts right now. I trust the pre-war literature much more.
This seems more realistic, if they could produce a few hundred a year, there is no reason they can't be producing the same number or more now. I try to find any logical reason but all I can is speculation, based on an idea that Russia use foreign made parts that they can't obtain due to sanctions, but again there is nothing but speculation that their tanks use any foreign made components, even Ukraine having captured a T-90M tank cannot produce any evidence of this.

TBH I was more or less joking about these 'experts', I don't believe them for a moment.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by mezsat2 » 29 Oct 2022 10:00

Believe this if you believe nothing else. Ukraine is currently operating more captured
Russian tanks than it had in its total military inventory on Feb. 1, 2022. Russia is therefore
being defeated by its own weapons.

They better pray Ukraine doesn't get Leopards. I don't foresee Abrams tanks there- far
too complex to maintain and operate on short notice. Fuel consumption is a problem as well.

US will probably replace their MBT as a result, but it will take many years- at least a decade.
No doubt, it's still a fearsome tank- in the hands of US crews with plenty of fuel trucks and
good maintenance staff with the specialized tools needed. Although, this may be intentional
so that US forces don't face the problem Russia is faced with now- their own equipment being
captured and turned against them.

US probably has a large number of M-60s mothballed to ship over there if it gets that critical.
There are many hundreds of M-109s ready to go, but Ukraine would need the fuel, crews, and
copious 155 ammo for them- none of which they have.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Oct 2022 12:37

johnwilliamhunter wrote:
29 Oct 2022 08:47
This seems more realistic, if they could produce a few hundred a year, there is no reason they can't be producing the same number or more now. I try to find any logical reason but all I can is speculation, based on an idea that Russia use foreign made parts that they can't obtain due to sanctions, but again there is nothing but speculation that their tanks use any foreign made components, even Ukraine having captured a T-90M tank cannot produce any evidence of this.

TBH I was more or less joking about these 'experts', I don't believe them for a moment.
It also implies that the Russians 'need' Western companies or else they can never make certain components themselves within a year.

This is similar to the propaganda about the Russians running out of missiles due to the 'overwhelming' power of the sanctions. Even the Pentagon press conferences have been claiming this since March. Just this month they've fired off some of the heaviest missile attacks, around 10/10 they fired 80 ballistic missiles in one day. If I were to believe the claims in our media the Russians would have ran out of missiles in April and Ukraine would have killed them all to the last cook & latrine washer by May. :lol:

When the Russian army returns to Ukraine with a lot less than 2700 tanks than I might believe some of it.

The 'rotten Russian army' cottage industry is global exercise in unsourced creative writing. It reminds of me of wishful thinking of Germans in 1941 and 1942.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Oct 2022 13:32

Their combined arms doctrine for their brigades can be summed up as artillery destroys, infantry and tanks occupy. They were missing the infantry part until now.

Given the performance of the DRP, which is composed of young and middle aged Ukrainian conscripts plus volunteers, the Russian brigades should be at least as good, and likely better than them. The reservists actually have 1 yr of service, minimum if they are not active and they are federal subjects.

This costly experiment with material attrition repeats the old lessons of WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, second Chechen war, and Afghanistan. All the material superiority in the world cannot replace an extreme shortage of infantrymen. Countries must mobilize from the start if they are serious about consolidating large, hostile countries.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 29 Oct 2022 13:53

28 Slovenian much upgraded T-55 tanks, the M-55S, on their way to Ukraine

Image

Image

Be interesting to know how the venerable 105mm gets on.

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 29 Oct 2022 14:08

johnwilliamhunter wrote:
29 Oct 2022 08:47

This seems more realistic, if they could produce a few hundred a year, there is no reason they can't be producing the same number or more now. I try to find any logical reason but all I can is speculation, based on an idea that Russia use foreign made parts that they can't obtain due to sanctions, but again there is nothing but speculation that their tanks use any foreign made components, even Ukraine having captured a T-90M tank cannot produce any evidence of this.

TBH I was more or less joking about these 'experts', I don't believe them for a moment.
We dont know the actual new tank production rate. We know they hired one of the main companies to refurb 800 T-62 in 3 years, so that doesnt imply a high new tank production rate. We also have evidence of foreign made parts in the T-90. We dont know how serious the effect of sanctions are.

I have no doubt the RU can make hull, turrets, etc, and anything from the 1980s era tech, but past that its something of a mystery. For example, do the tanks use heavy roller bearings ? This is affecting the RU rail industry as they cannot produce enough of them domestically.

Mad Dog

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 29 Oct 2022 14:14

mezsat2 wrote:
29 Oct 2022 10:00
Believe this if you believe nothing else. Ukraine is currently operating more captured
Russian tanks than it had in its total military inventory on Feb. 1, 2022. Russia is therefore
being defeated by its own weapons.

They better pray Ukraine doesn't get Leopards. I don't foresee Abrams tanks there- far
too complex to maintain and operate on short notice. Fuel consumption is a problem as well.

US will probably replace their MBT as a result, but it will take many years- at least a decade.
No doubt, it's still a fearsome tank- in the hands of US crews with plenty of fuel trucks and
good maintenance staff with the specialized tools needed. Although, this may be intentional
so that US forces don't face the problem Russia is faced with now- their own equipment being
captured and turned against them.

US probably has a large number of M-60s mothballed to ship over there if it gets that critical.
There are many hundreds of M-109s ready to go, but Ukraine would need the fuel, crews, and
copious 155 ammo for them- none of which they have.
RU is by far the single biggest source of equipment for UKR. Evidence shows that the UKR heavy weapons selection has been improving over time.

I dont foresee Leo2 or similar western tanks for some time. This would be difficult to support logistically and there is political pressure not to do so for now.

My understanding is that the M-60 in storage are only good for scap.

Mad Dog

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 29 Oct 2022 14:23

Cult Icon wrote:
29 Oct 2022 12:37

It also implies that the Russians 'need' Western companies or else they can never make certain components themselves within a year.
Downed missiles have been examined and found to have multiple western chips the RU cannot manufacture.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/23 ... 5c5248bf3d
Cult Icon wrote:
29 Oct 2022 12:37
This is similar to the propaganda about the Russians running out of missiles due to the 'overwhelming' power of the sanctions. Even the Pentagon press conferences have been claiming this since March. Just this month they've fired off some of the heaviest missile attacks, around 10/10 they fired 80 ballistic missiles in one day. If I were to believe the claims in our media the Russians would have ran out of missiles in April and Ukraine would have killed them all to the last cook & latrine washer by May. :lol:
While estimates of RU inventories are speculation, here is what we do know:

- overall rates of usage have dropped
- RU is importing Iranian drones and uses them in place.

If the "superpower" RU has many missiles left in inventory, why are they using flying lawnmowers purchased from an international pariah ?
Cult Icon wrote:
29 Oct 2022 12:37
When the Russian army returns to Ukraine with a lot less than 2700 tanks than I might believe some of it.
Pretty sure they dont have anywhere like 2700 on the field now, after having lost so many. The increasing use of T-62 tanks points to a deficit of more "modern" tanks.

Mad Dog

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 29 Oct 2022 14:27

Cult Icon wrote:
29 Oct 2022 13:32
Their combined arms doctrine for their brigades can be summed up as artillery destroys, infantry and tanks occupy. They were missing the infantry part until now.
THe RU forces arent using combined arms doctrine at all. They were missing the infantry part. Now they are missing the artillery (ammunition) and the tanks. The RU forces are terribly trained and cannot work past the battalion level.
Cult Icon wrote:
29 Oct 2022 13:32
Given the performance of the DRP, which is composed of young and middle aged Ukrainian conscripts plus volunteers, the Russian brigades should be at least as good, and likely better than them. The reservists actually have 1 yr of service, minimum if they are not active and they are federal subjects.
The DPR's own website says they have taken 70% losses of their original forces. That doesnt lend itself to increasing competency. Shoveling in a lot of new men without any serious attempt at training isnt going to make things better, its just going to be a windfall for the RU company that produces body bags.

Mad Dog

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