The end of tanks as we know it?

Discussions on other historical eras.
Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 29 Oct 2022 14:30

Gooner1 wrote:
29 Oct 2022 13:53
28 Slovenian much upgraded T-55 tanks, the M-55S, on their way to Ukraine

Be interesting to know how the venerable 105mm gets on.
I cant see the point of this other than for Slovenia to get better equipment form GER in exchange. The M-55s might be ok for training, but I cannot believe that its good enough on the battlefield for usage. It adds logistical problems to a UKR system that is undoubtedly under stress.

Mad Dog

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 29 Oct 2022 21:03

Tom Peters wrote:
29 Oct 2022 14:30

I cant see the point of this other than for Slovenia to get better equipment form GER in exchange. The M-55s might be ok for training, but I cannot believe that its good enough on the battlefield for usage. It adds logistical problems to a UKR system that is undoubtedly under stress.

Mad Dog
A case of beggars can't be choosers I think.

Not much in the way of operational Soviet era armour left in Europe. Probably the Polish 200-odd PT-91s are the only substantial tank reinforcements Ukraine can expect in the near future.
Absent even more generous Russian 'donations'.

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wm
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by wm » 29 Oct 2022 22:24

The M-55S tank: a deep modernization of the Soviet T-55 for the Armed Forces
The M-55S is significantly different from its predecessor. The tank received a new gun – a 105 mm Royal Ordnance L7 with a thermal insulation jacket, one of the most successful tank guns of all time. The tower and hull were covered with additional reactive armor, which even changed the silhouette of the tank, bringing it closer to modern ones.
The M-55S received a digital ballistic computer and gun stabilization, a Fotona SGS-55 sight with a laser rangefinder, a Fotona COMTOS-55 commander’s sight, an improved engine, and new rubber-metal tracks, and even a LIRD-1A laser radiation detector linked to the smoke grenade launcher IS-6.

Yes, it’s not a Leopard 2A7+ or an M1A2 Abrams, but such a tank will come in handy while we’re still waiting for modern western tanks. So thank you, Slovenia!

Peter89
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 30 Oct 2022 08:43

Gooner1 wrote:
29 Oct 2022 21:03

A case of beggars can't be choosers I think.

Not much in the way of operational Soviet era armour left in Europe. Probably the Polish 200-odd PT-91s are the only substantial tank reinforcements Ukraine can expect in the near future.
Absent even more generous Russian 'donations'.
It all depends on the member states. Hungary alone has hundreds of Soviet era armour, dozens of aircraft and hundreds of artillery pieces. Other countries have great conserved stockpiles as well. But why would a member state compromise its own defense capabilities for Ukraine?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

johnwilliamhunter
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by johnwilliamhunter » 30 Oct 2022 08:59

Tom Peters wrote:
29 Oct 2022 14:08
We also have evidence of foreign made parts in the T-90.
Mad Dog
Can you link to this evidence? I can't find anything searching google, only news articles and blogs speculating or using the say so of the Ukrainian intelligence as a source.

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 30 Oct 2022 11:43

Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 08:43

It all depends on the member states. Hungary alone has hundreds of Soviet era armour, dozens of aircraft and hundreds of artillery pieces. Other countries have great conserved stockpiles as well. But why would a member state compromise its own defense capabilities for Ukraine?
Conserved equipment or vintage Soviet stock left to rot in a field somewhere?

Don't worry, nobody is expecting a thing from Hungary.

Peter89
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 30 Oct 2022 12:16

Gooner1 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 11:43
Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 08:43

It all depends on the member states. Hungary alone has hundreds of Soviet era armour, dozens of aircraft and hundreds of artillery pieces. Other countries have great conserved stockpiles as well. But why would a member state compromise its own defense capabilities for Ukraine?
Conserved equipment or vintage Soviet stock left to rot in a field somewhere?

Don't worry, nobody is expecting a thing from Hungary.
Conserved equipment.

I only cited Hungary because I know its stocks the best. The guys I was talking to in Czechia, Romania, etc. are telling the same story.

Then "nobody" is stupid.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 30 Oct 2022 20:01

Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 12:16

Conserved equipment.

I only cited Hungary because I know its stocks the best. The guys I was talking to in Czechia, Romania, etc. are telling the same story.

Then "nobody" is stupid.
Well Czechia has sent T72s to Ukraine already, Romania has none to send, only T55s. As for Hungary their T72 tanks, whatever their condition, they are about as much use to Ukraine as tits on a bull.

"Though Hungary is a member of both NATO and the European Union, it has declined to join other Western allies in providing Kyiv with military support. Instead, it has banned weapon deliveries from crossing through Hungary into next-door Ukraine."
https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary ... ern-front/

Best idea would be for Germany to divert the Hungarian order of 44 Leopard 2a7s straight to Ukraine.

,

Peter89
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 30 Oct 2022 21:23

Gooner1 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 20:01
Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 12:16

Conserved equipment.

I only cited Hungary because I know its stocks the best. The guys I was talking to in Czechia, Romania, etc. are telling the same story.

Then "nobody" is stupid.
Well Czechia has sent T72s to Ukraine already, Romania has none to send, only T55s. As for Hungary their T72 tanks, whatever their condition, they are about as much use to Ukraine as tits on a bull.

"Though Hungary is a member of both NATO and the European Union, it has declined to join other Western allies in providing Kyiv with military support. Instead, it has banned weapon deliveries from crossing through Hungary into next-door Ukraine."
https://www.politico.eu/article/hungary ... ern-front/

Best idea would be for Germany to divert the Hungarian order of 44 Leopard 2a7s straight to Ukraine.

,
You were plainly wrong when you said that "Not much in the way of operational Soviet era armour left in Europe.".

Then even though I wrote "It all depends on the member states.", you followed that up with "Don't worry, nobody is expecting a thing from Hungary.", which is clearly an appeal to common sense - or to misjudgement rather. Hungary provides economic and humanitarian aid to Ukraine well beyond its proportionate size, but it is not interested in escalating the conflict and compromising its own defensive capabilities, thus it does not send weapons to Ukraine. However Hungary did sell part of its T-72 fleet to Ukraine at the price of scrap iron before the 2022 offensive.

Now I can not do anything about the nonsense you wrote about the Leopards. If I pay for a loaf of bread, it doesn't matter if someone else is hungry, I will get it and he will not; that's the end of the story.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 30 Oct 2022 23:23

Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 21:23


You were plainly wrong when you said that "Not much in the way of operational Soviet era armour left in Europe.".

Then even though I wrote "It all depends on the member states.", you followed that up with "Don't worry, nobody is expecting a thing from Hungary.", which is clearly an appeal to common sense - or to misjudgement rather. Hungary provides economic and humanitarian aid to Ukraine well beyond its proportionate size, but it is not interested in escalating the conflict and compromising its own defensive capabilities, thus it does not send weapons to Ukraine. However Hungary did sell part of its T-72 fleet to Ukraine at the price of scrap iron before the 2022 offensive.
Ok, so we have established that Hungary has large stocks of serviceable Soviet era equipment but will not supply any to Ukraine. Great :roll:

Nothing impressive in Hungary's non military aid to Ukraine either,

Image

Hungary barely registers at 0.03 % of GDP
https://www.statista.com/statistics/130 ... donor-gdp/
Now I can not do anything about the nonsense you wrote about the Leopards. If I pay for a loaf of bread, it doesn't matter if someone else is hungry, I will get it and he will not; that's the end of the story.
Can Hungary still afford them when the EU cuts their €7.5 billion?

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 31 Oct 2022 02:32

johnwilliamhunter wrote:
30 Oct 2022 08:59
Tom Peters wrote:
29 Oct 2022 14:08
We also have evidence of foreign made parts in the T-90.
Mad Dog
Can you link to this evidence? I can't find anything searching google, only news articles and blogs speculating or using the say so of the Ukrainian intelligence as a source.
This is the tank in question:

https://postimg.cc/K40YxHQ4

but the Oryx site doesnt have the interior shots.

You can see some of the interior shots here:

https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/157 ... -t90m-tank

and here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDe ... ured_t90m/

Im trying to find the rest - I originally found them on defensetalk.com but thats a million pages long. The gist had something to do with French night sight technology, IIRC.

Mad Dog

Peter89
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 31 Oct 2022 07:35

Gooner1 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 23:23
Peter89 wrote:
30 Oct 2022 21:23


You were plainly wrong when you said that "Not much in the way of operational Soviet era armour left in Europe.".

Then even though I wrote "It all depends on the member states.", you followed that up with "Don't worry, nobody is expecting a thing from Hungary.", which is clearly an appeal to common sense - or to misjudgement rather. Hungary provides economic and humanitarian aid to Ukraine well beyond its proportionate size, but it is not interested in escalating the conflict and compromising its own defensive capabilities, thus it does not send weapons to Ukraine. However Hungary did sell part of its T-72 fleet to Ukraine at the price of scrap iron before the 2022 offensive.
Ok, so we have established that Hungary has large stocks of serviceable Soviet era equipment but will not supply any to Ukraine. Great :roll:

Nothing impressive in Hungary's non military aid to Ukraine either,

Image

Hungary barely registers at 0.03 % of GDP
https://www.statista.com/statistics/130 ... donor-gdp/
Now I can not do anything about the nonsense you wrote about the Leopards. If I pay for a loaf of bread, it doesn't matter if someone else is hungry, I will get it and he will not; that's the end of the story.
Can Hungary still afford them when the EU cuts their €7.5 billion?
1. Yes, it is so.
2. Yes, Hungary is still able to afford them (7.5 bn EUR is about 5% of the GDP), besides, a lot of German equipment such as Lynx will be produced in Hungary. Also the EU and Hungary will settle about the money, which is owed to Hungary.
3. We don't need to go around in circles re Hungary, because I only brought it up as an example. What do you know about other post-Soviet states?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 31 Oct 2022 13:14

Peter89 wrote:
31 Oct 2022 07:35
1. Yes, it is so.
2. Yes, Hungary is still able to afford them (7.5 bn EUR is about 5% of the GDP), besides, a lot of German equipment such as Lynx will be produced in Hungary. Also the EU and Hungary will settle about the money, which is owed to Hungary.
3. We don't need to go around in circles re Hungary, because I only brought it up as an example. What do you know about other post-Soviet states?
2. The money is 'owed' to Hungary as part of the EU Cohesion Fund. There are strings attached, like behaving as a grown-up democracy.
I hope Germany is going through the Leopard 2 contract with a fine tooth comb. They seem to be able to delay delivery of military hardware when it suits - Poland is still waiting for the promised earlier mark Leopard 2s, which might enable it to release more PT-91s.

3. Hungary is only an example of the exception. Every other post-Soviet state is supplying military hardware to Ukraine, often in very significant quantities

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-agai ... t-tracker/

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/a ... plied.html

Peter89
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Peter89 » 31 Oct 2022 16:49

Gooner1 wrote:
31 Oct 2022 13:14
Peter89 wrote:
31 Oct 2022 07:35
1. Yes, it is so.
2. Yes, Hungary is still able to afford them (7.5 bn EUR is about 5% of the GDP), besides, a lot of German equipment such as Lynx will be produced in Hungary. Also the EU and Hungary will settle about the money, which is owed to Hungary.
3. We don't need to go around in circles re Hungary, because I only brought it up as an example. What do you know about other post-Soviet states?
2. The money is 'owed' to Hungary as part of the EU Cohesion Fund. There are strings attached, like behaving as a grown-up democracy.
I hope Germany is going through the Leopard 2 contract with a fine tooth comb. They seem to be able to delay delivery of military hardware when it suits - Poland is still waiting for the promised earlier mark Leopard 2s, which might enable it to release more PT-91s.

3. Hungary is only an example of the exception. Every other post-Soviet state is supplying military hardware to Ukraine, often in very significant quantities

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-agai ... t-tracker/

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/a ... plied.html
There are no strings attached, but never mind, neither Hungary nor the EU is the topic here.

I do not really care about your hopes.

However, what do you know about the military stocks in former Warsaw Pact states?
Are you sure about the stocks of the Soviet era vehicles are depleted?
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 31 Oct 2022 17:25

Peter89 wrote:
31 Oct 2022 16:49

There are no strings attached, but never mind,
Wrong again.

"EU Commission to cut funding for Hungary by 7.5 billion euros

Because of corruption and violations of the rule of law in Hungary, the European Commission has proposed to cut payments of about 7.5 billion euros from the EU budget to the country. This was announced by EU Budget Commissioner Johannes Hahn in Brussels on Sunday. It is the first time that the EU Commission has proposed this step due to rule of law shortcomings in an EU country.

The money from the EU budget is not sufficiently protected from misuse in Hungary, the Austrian said. At the same time, he praised the commitments that the Hungarian government had recently made to address the existing shortcomings. "Hungary has actually moved," Hahn said. In order for the country to actually cut money from the EU budget, at least 15 countries with 65 percent of the EU population would now have to agree to the proposal.

Ursula von der Leyen's authority had already initiated the procedure under the so-called EU rule of law mechanism in April. This has been in force since the beginning of 2021 and is intended to ensure that violations of rule-of-law principles such as the separation of powers no longer go unpunished. The decisive factor here is that the deficits threaten to misuse EU funds.

Because Poland and Hungary see themselves as being particularly in the spotlight, both had taken legal action against it before the European Court of Justice. However, the Court rejected the complaints in February. Both countries receive billions annually from the EU budget.

Hungary had recently shown some willingness to compromise with the EU Commission, but did not dispel the authority's concerns. Therefore, it has now initiated the next step in the rule-of-law procedure. The authority is also currently blocking several billion euros in Corona aid for Hungary. It is the only country that has so far been unable to agree with the EU Commission on a plan for using the money."
https://themunicheye.com/eu-commission- ... euros-5033

However, what do you know about the military stocks in former Warsaw Pact states?
Are you sure about the stocks of the Soviet era vehicles are depleted?
The modern ones that could end up in Ukrainian hands, yes. Apart from the Polish 200-odd PT-91s. The Poles probably waiting until adequate numbers of Abrams, Leopard IIs and South Korean K2s have been received before supplying them.

The only thing that counts here. I don't care about you Hungary 'Stronk' fantasies of massive military reserves. :roll:

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