The end of tanks as we know it?

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#451

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023, 18:15

Gooner1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 16:48
Image
There is a lot of panic to be judged by the likes of cult icon. :lol: :lol:

Michael Kenny
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#452

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Jan 2023, 18:16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGJ9ZCd ... TimesRadio
London sold out to the Russians a long time back.. ......they even put a KGB agent into The House Lords.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 25 Jan 2023, 18:20, edited 1 time in total.


Michael Kenny
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#453

Post by Michael Kenny » 25 Jan 2023, 18:19

Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:14

It does make a lot sense as german operational thinking and what Hitler imposed were two different things.
Yes it was all Hitler's fault. If only the war had lasted a few more months...Haunebu, Stealth jets undetectable U Boats, Moon Bases, Atom bombs tested in Poland.....sob......sob.... if only, sob............

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#454

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023, 18:24

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:19
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:14

It does make a lot sense as german operational thinking and what Hitler imposed were two different things.
Yes it was all Hitler's fault. If only the war had lasted a few more months...Haunebu, Stealth jets undetectable U Boats, Moon Bases, Atom bombs tested in Poland.....sob......sob.... if only, sob............
This is your biased way of misrepresenting what was effectively said. Russia followers seem to be really being in a bad mood which is fun to see as their chosen country is not doing too well for itself. :lol: :lol:

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#455

Post by ljadw » 25 Jan 2023, 19:05

Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:00
ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 14:44
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:11
gebhk wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:00
Most tank losses were non combat losses and most tank combat losses are not caused by enemy tanks, but by artillery, infantry ..
And a non-sequitur to what I wrote, which was that a tank has been the most effective way of mounting a tank killing weapon in the last 100 years or so.

Here's a thought experiment - you are going to fight an enemy tank with, let's say, a 75mm A/T gun. What do you think would give you the best chances destroying the enemy tank and, crucially, survibing youurself? The gun mounted opn two heels and pulled by two horses, on the back of a truck, on a self propelled turretless chassis or in a tank with a rotating turret? Answers on the back of a postcard as they say. :wink:

Note the critical words which you are ignoring - effective and tank killing. We are not talking of breakdowns we are talking of destroying tanks in combat.
He does not understand the latter.
The result of a breakdown or of a tank destroyed in combat, is the same .
Besides : it is not needed to destroy a tank in combat to eliminate him : you can do it by eliminating the truck with fuel.
And, how many tanks damaged in combat could be repaired at time so that they could be used again ?
Another example of your ignorance. A tank that is not totall loss can be repaired so there is a massive difference between breakdown and destruction. Many tanks can be repaired.
Immobilising a tank is not the same as destruction if it is not captured or blown up to avoid the former.
A tank that is not total loss is mostly not repaired as reparation takes not weeks but months .
An immobilized tank means a lost tank as a tank needs mobility and firepower to survive .
Even after 80 years , a lot of people parrot the story of the superior Soviet T 34 and KV tanks who could not be destroyed by the German tanks ,but as usual evade to answer the question why 82 % of the T 34 tanks were lost in Ww2 ,2300 of them and 900 KV tanks in 1941 only .
In less than 6 weeks the Soviets lost some 10000 tanks , not by German tanks .
The Soviets lost in June-July some 8000 tanks, most of them by non combat causes and these tanks were not repaired by the Soviets .
Source : Schustereit, Vabanque

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#456

Post by Aida1 » 25 Jan 2023, 19:33

ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 19:05
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:00
ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 14:44
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:11
gebhk wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:00

And a non-sequitur to what I wrote, which was that a tank has been the most effective way of mounting a tank killing weapon in the last 100 years or so.

Here's a thought experiment - you are going to fight an enemy tank with, let's say, a 75mm A/T gun. What do you think would give you the best chances destroying the enemy tank and, crucially, survibing youurself? The gun mounted opn two heels and pulled by two horses, on the back of a truck, on a self propelled turretless chassis or in a tank with a rotating turret? Answers on the back of a postcard as they say. :wink:

Note the critical words which you are ignoring - effective and tank killing. We are not talking of breakdowns we are talking of destroying tanks in combat.
He does not understand the latter.
The result of a breakdown or of a tank destroyed in combat, is the same .
Besides : it is not needed to destroy a tank in combat to eliminate him : you can do it by eliminating the truck with fuel.
And, how many tanks damaged in combat could be repaired at time so that they could be used again ?
Another example of your ignorance. A tank that is not totall loss can be repaired so there is a massive difference between breakdown and destruction. Many tanks can be repaired.
Immobilising a tank is not the same as destruction if it is not captured or blown up to avoid the former.
A tank that is not total loss is mostly not repaired as reparation takes not weeks but months .
An immobilized tank means a lost tank as a tank needs mobility and firepower to survive .
Even after 80 years , a lot of people parrot the story of the superior Soviet T 34 and KV tanks who could not be destroyed by the German tanks ,but as usual evade to answer the question why 82 % of the T 34 tanks were lost in Ww2 ,2300 of them and 900 KV tanks in 1941 only .
In less than 6 weeks the Soviets lost some 10000 tanks , not by German tanks .
The Soviets lost in June-July some 8000 tanks, most of them by non combat causes and these tanks were not repaired by the Soviets .
Source : Schustereit, Vabanque
Your personal opinion which is complete nonsense as usual. You clearly have no knowledge of the extent to which tanks can be repaired. :lol: :lol:

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#457

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:16

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 07:40
Tom Peters wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 03:55


how about this one:

Alvin Coox, "Survey of Allied Tank Casualties in WW2"


Figure 5: Calibre of Enemy Gunfire (% of total):
light: 6%
misc med: 5%
75mm: 36%
88mm: 50%
heavy: 3%
Probably the weakest parts of the survey. It is a good 'overview' and a primer for more detailed research. For example the 88mm % figure is way too high. When I contacted Naisawald about this way back in 2008 he told me they sourced it mainly from US AAR's rather than detailed casualty surveys. Use with caution.
Good luck getting a better one. I cant imagine many crews making detailed surveys on the size of the AP hole when bailing out. Nevertheless, indirect HE fire is going to be a much smaller % than direct fire. Thats changing these days, but I imagine you arent going to find surveys that reflect top of the line artillery rounds.

The Point Being, ljadw doesnt have any data to stand on. At least I quoted something relevant.

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#458

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:21

ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 11:09

In August 1941 Guderian asked for new engines for his tanks as a big part of them were immobilized because of engine problems .
I dont care what you think Guderian said in 1941. Thats heresay, not a collection of data like in the Coox report.

Find a source of collected data to support your assertion.



Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#459

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:23

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:27
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 13:10
Actually german ww2 commanders knew very well how to deal with russian tank attacks
Really? How did that work out for them?


https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-cont ... zow_44.jpg
Thats not a zero-sum game. The Germans could be better at AT doctrine and still lose.

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#460

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:25

ljadw wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 14:44


The result of a breakdown or of a tank destroyed in combat, is the same .
[facepalm]

Breakdown = crew all lives, tank can be repaired
destroyed in combat - some % of crew dies, tank cannot be repaired.

Why is this a difficult concept for you ?

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#461

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:26

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 15:46
The main 'tank killer' of Ukrainian armor in this war has been Russian drone-spotted artillery.

The main 'tank killer' of Russian armor in this war has been Ukrainian drone-spotted artillery.
Got any data for this ?

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#462

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:27

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 16:12
After the Russians deal with these white elephants, they will perform outside exhibitions with captured samples (Bradley, Abrams, Leopard) and gloat about them.
Sure, they can put them next to all those captured HIMARS.

Talk about an empty exhibit.

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#463

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:31

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:05
Once these tanks/IFV are 20KM from the front, Russian drone-artillery will start to hunt them down and destroy their supporting vehicles, and overall whittle down their numbers.
Sure, sure, that would explain the lower loss rates for UKR armor so far.
Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:05
Then for the surviving tanks/IFV that actually make it to the front lines, they would be engaged with SU-25, KA-52, and other helicopters/fighters with anti-tank PGM or glide bombs/rockets. Then Russian armor and ATGM will destroy them.
That might also be scary, if the RU air units werent so scared to fly past the FEBA.
Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:05
Besides direct fire, there has been deep interdiction which is not reported much at all in Western sources. The Russians have fired thousands of missiles, eg. Iskander-M at ammo dumps, fuel depots, supply depots, and assemblies.
...seemingly hitting mostly civilian targets.

[golf clap]

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#464

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:37

Cult Icon wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:12
This man, like millions of others, is digging his hands bloody for the 'magical keys' to victory :
There is no victory in UKR. Only losses. At best, UKR will continue as an independent political entity, while incurring massive economic losses. At best, RU will own more of UKR, but watch its economy slide under the waves while it ignites a new cold war it cannot possibly win.

But go ahead, keep playing the little Russian cheerleader.

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

#465

Post by Tom Peters » 26 Jan 2023, 00:39

Michael Kenny wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:19
Aida1 wrote:
25 Jan 2023, 18:14

It does make a lot sense as german operational thinking and what Hitler imposed were two different things.
Yes it was all Hitler's fault. If only the war had lasted a few more months...Haunebu, Stealth jets undetectable U Boats, Moon Bases, Atom bombs tested in Poland.....sob......sob.... if only, sob............
"The most important rule is never get involved in a land war in Aisa".

-V

Mad Dog

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