The end of tanks as we know it?

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 28 Jan 2023 18:09

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 16:30
Gooner1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 14:15
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:02
[
''Next few months " ? This is a very big exaggeration and generalization .
That most of these tanks are ''superior '' to the Russian tanks is
For other people's benefit:

6/12/22
"Last week, we had the opportunity to visit the Excalibur Army plant in Šternberg, where a presentation of part of the current portfolio of military equipment that the Czech company produces or is modernizing was held, including equipment that is already or in the near future will be sent to the Ukrainian army in the fight against Russian aggression.
Thus, we had the opportunity to see, for example. The modernization carried out by the Šternberg company provides the tank crew with, for example, higher protection in the form of installation of reactive armour (ERA – Explosive Reactive Armour), a new communication system (from MESIT), the tank has better ergonomics of vehicle control (new digital dashboard) or more sophisticated equipment for not only night vision (anti-laser eye protection, the driver has a thermal vision with optical elements allowing tenfold zoom and the gunner has a night vision with the same optical parameters) and as part of the modernization, the engine power was also increased from 780 hp to 840. 11 of these tanks have already been shipped to Ukraine (Excalibur Army has delivered a total of 27 tanks to Ukraine since the beginning of the year), where today 9 units (1 unit was reportedly destroyed and 1 unit was captured in September) of these tanks are successfully fighting. A total of 90 T-72EA tanks (+ an option for another 30 tanks) are then agreed for production for Ukraine, to be jointly financed by the United States and the Netherlands. The T-72 tanks to be upgraded to T-72EA come from the mobilization stocks of the former Warsaw Pact countries (these are non-functional T-72 units in the base, T-72M and T-72M1), with one unit of these tanks being completed every 4 days to the upgraded T-72EA version.
The original tanks are completely disassembled, inspected, selected parts are replaced, a complete engine overhaul takes place, and new modernization components are delivered (optics, wiring harnesses, reactive armor, etc.). The next batch of US and Dutch funded upgrades will then go to Ukraine this week."

https://www.czdefence.com/article/czech ... nst-russia
All this des not prove that these tanks are superior to the Russian tanks.
And, what is it now ?
a 11 tanks shipped to Ukraine ?
or b 27 tanks delivered to Ukraine ?
That 90 T-72 EA tanks are agreed for production to Ukraine is also totally meaningless :how long will it take before these 90 tanks are and operating in Ukraine and are manned and are having the needed fuel,the needed ammunition,the needed spare parts ,the needed mechanics,and the needed infantry and artillery .
If every day one of these tanks is becoming operational it will take weeks before they are available to the Ukrainians ,and, if the Russians attack before they are available ,what is the use of these tanks ?
Why should anyone believe the propaganda of the Excalibur Army plant ?
The fact that these tanks must be completely be disassembled,proves that they are only useless wrecks that are 40 years old .
Just denying everything as always. :lol: :lol:

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 28 Jan 2023 18:10

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 16:53
From Kake abc com 26 January 2023
''Ukraine's new tanks wont't be the instant game-changer some expect .''
''It will take months to transfer the Abrams tanks and 8 months or more to see them in combat .''
Do you think that the Russians will wait 8 months to start a new offensive ?
Besides : why would Ukraine need Leos and Abrams ?
They did it well without them and the Russians did it badly with a numerical tank superiority .There is no proof that if Ukraine had Leos and Abrams a year ago ,the whole of Ukraine would be liberated and that if the Russians had such tanks, they would now be at the Polish and Romanian borders .
Thus ,there is no need to believe any word from the tank lobby .
The tank lobby only exists in your warped imagination. :lol: :lol:
Tanks are important.
https://youtu.be/hMQ1F2eiHzA

Gooner1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 28 Jan 2023 18:57

Aida1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:09
Just denying everything as always. :lol: :lol:
The annoyingly predictable part of ljads ranting response is that he clearly didn't read the text.

Or he could have triec a bit of googling instead of his usual stream of consciousness bullshittery.

Anyway
The Excalibur Army arms company is investing about CZK 650 million (more than EUR 27 million) in the construction of another production workshop and the installation of new technologies at its plant in Šternberk in Olomouc region (the Czech Republic).

According to the website of the Czech Radio on Tuesday, this decision was made in connection with the growing demand for military equipment.

The Excalibur Army, which is part of the Czechoslovak Group (CSG) weapons and engineering holding, recently won a contract to modernize almost 100 T-72 tanks, which is funded by the United States and the Netherlands as part of military assistance to Ukraine. In 2022, this company upgraded T-72 tanks for the Ukrainian army.

"The modernized T-72 tanks have a more powerful engine, new communication systems, digital diagnostics, modern aiming systems, and additional dynamic armor. The company is able to upgrade up to five tanks every month. Last year, Excalibur Army delivered about 100 units of military equipment to Ukraine, including modernized T-72 tanks, artillery systems, rocket launchers and infantry fighting vehicles," the report notes.

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023 19:58

Aida1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:10
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 16:53
From Kake abc com 26 January 2023
''Ukraine's new tanks wont't be the instant game-changer some expect .''
''It will take months to transfer the Abrams tanks and 8 months or more to see them in combat .''
Do you think that the Russians will wait 8 months to start a new offensive ?
Besides : why would Ukraine need Leos and Abrams ?
They did it well without them and the Russians did it badly with a numerical tank superiority .There is no proof that if Ukraine had Leos and Abrams a year ago ,the whole of Ukraine would be liberated and that if the Russians had such tanks, they would now be at the Polish and Romanian borders .
Thus ,there is no need to believe any word from the tank lobby .
The tank lobby only exists in your warped imagination. :lol: :lol
https://youtu.be/hMQ1F2eiHzA
No tank lobby ??? General Dynamics which produces the Abrams tank,gave in 2022 millions of USD to American politicians .

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023 20:18

Gooner1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:57
Aida1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:09
Just denying everything as always. :lol: :lol:
The annoyingly predictable part of ljads ranting response is that he clearly didn't read the text.

Or he could have triec a bit of googling instead of his usual stream of consciousness bullshittery.

Anyway
The Excalibur Army arms company is investing about CZK 650 million (more than EUR 27 million) in the construction of another production workshop and the installation of new technologies at its plant in Šternberk in Olomouc region (the Czech Republic).

According to the website of the Czech Radio on Tuesday, this decision was made in connection with the growing demand for military equipment.

The Excalibur Army, which is part of the Czechoslovak Group (CSG) weapons and engineering holding, recently won a contract to modernize almost 100 T-72 tanks, which is funded by the United States and the Netherlands as part of military assistance to Ukraine. In 2022, this company upgraded T-72 tanks for the Ukrainian army.

"The modernized T-72 tanks have a more powerful engine, new communication systems, digital diagnostics, modern aiming systems, and additional dynamic armor. The company is able to upgrade up to five tanks every month. Last year, Excalibur Army delivered about 100 units of military equipment to Ukraine, including modernized T-72 tanks, artillery systems, rocket launchers and infantry fighting vehicles," the report notes.
What you have given is a propaganda text from the PR section of CSG, which is a weapons holding and makes propaganda,publicity for its products . .
''more powerful engine '' who proves that this is correct ?'new communication systems "' what is the proof that this is true ?
Do you think that they would say :less powerful engine ? no new communication system ?
They dare even not say how many modernized T-72 tanks they had delivered to Ukraine last year ,or maybe they don't know it .
They say that they have received money to modernize 100 T-72 tanks ,but they are forced to admit that they can upgrade only 5 tanks every month, which means that the last of the tanks will be upgraded in August 2024 !
Have you not found something serious as proof that the tanks from CSG will be decisive ?
Your text is not more serious and convincing than the propaganda of the Pravda about the imaginary successes of the Soviet 5 years plans .
Besides : why would more powerful engines,new communication systems etc (for which there is no proof,except unproved claims ) ,be important for the outcome of the war ?
Why would 15 modernized T -72 tanks be important if in April the Russians start a new offensive ? Do you know the length of the front ?

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Gorque
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gorque » 28 Jan 2023 21:24

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 19:58
Aida1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:10
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 16:53
From Kake abc com 26 January 2023
''Ukraine's new tanks wont't be the instant game-changer some expect .''
''It will take months to transfer the Abrams tanks and 8 months or more to see them in combat .''
Do you think that the Russians will wait 8 months to start a new offensive ?
Besides : why would Ukraine need Leos and Abrams ?
They did it well without them and the Russians did it badly with a numerical tank superiority .There is no proof that if Ukraine had Leos and Abrams a year ago ,the whole of Ukraine would be liberated and that if the Russians had such tanks, they would now be at the Polish and Romanian borders .
Thus ,there is no need to believe any word from the tank lobby .
The tank lobby only exists in your warped imagination. :lol: :lol
https://youtu.be/hMQ1F2eiHzA
No tank lobby ??? General Dynamics which produces the Abrams tank,gave in 2022 millions of USD to American politicians .
Millions?!?

For all of 2020, General Dynamics only gave $ 25,000 00 to various politicians.

https://www.opensecrets.org/donor-looku ... esc&sort=D

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 28 Jan 2023 22:03

In 2022 General Dynamics gave to the Democrats ( individuals and PACS ) 1,516,040 USD and to the GOP (individuals and PACS ) 1,565,577 USD .
The difference between individual candidates and PACS is only semantics .
Source : Open Secrets .

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Gorque
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gorque » 28 Jan 2023 22:06

Here we go.... $ 3,113, 982 in 2022.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/genera ... D000000165

The first link only listed donation made in 2020 in the state of Georgia.

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 28 Jan 2023 22:44

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023 01:12
ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023 09:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog
How long took it to ''modernize '' ( modernize is not make operational ) 20 Moroccan tanks ?
What does that have to do with my question ? Do you have any actual information on attainment rates or similar data ?

Yes or No ?
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
After the fall of Saddam Iraq received 140 tanks and in December 2014 only 40 of these were still operational .
So in 9 years only a few are left operational ? Whats the time frame ? Were they sitting in warehouses ? There is no context here.

For tanks in active operational use, what is the mean time between major failures ? Under typical maintenance, how many road miles between drivetrain failures ?

These are the types of questions that need to be answered.
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
It is not better today .
You keep claiming that but provide no sources.

Mad Dog

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 29 Jan 2023 07:26

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 19:58
Aida1 wrote:
28 Jan 2023 18:10
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 16:53
From Kake abc com 26 January 2023
''Ukraine's new tanks wont't be the instant game-changer some expect .''
''It will take months to transfer the Abrams tanks and 8 months or more to see them in combat .''
Do you think that the Russians will wait 8 months to start a new offensive ?
Besides : why would Ukraine need Leos and Abrams ?
They did it well without them and the Russians did it badly with a numerical tank superiority .There is no proof that if Ukraine had Leos and Abrams a year ago ,the whole of Ukraine would be liberated and that if the Russians had such tanks, they would now be at the Polish and Romanian borders .
Thus ,there is no need to believe any word from the tank lobby .
The tank lobby only exists in your warped imagination. :lol: :lol
https://youtu.be/hMQ1F2eiHzA
No tank lobby ??? General Dynamics which produces the Abrams tank,gave in 2022 millions of USD to American politicians .
All american firms donate money to politicians so you are trolling as usual.

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 29 Jan 2023 07:27

ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 22:03
In 2022 General Dynamics gave to the Democrats ( individuals and PACS ) 1,516,040 USD and to the GOP (individuals and PACS ) 1,565,577 USD .
The difference between individual candidates and PACS is only semantics .
Source : Open Secrets .
Nothing to do with a socalled tank lobby. :lol: :lol:

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 29 Jan 2023 10:17

Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023 22:44
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023 01:12
ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023 09:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog
How long took it to ''modernize '' ( modernize is not make operational ) 20 Moroccan tanks ?
What does that have to do with my question ? Do you have any actual information on attainment rates or similar data ?

Yes or No ?
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
After the fall of Saddam Iraq received 140 tanks and in December 2014 only 40 of these were still operational .
So in 9 years only a few are left operational ? Whats the time frame ? Were they sitting in warehouses ? There is no context here.

For tanks in active operational use, what is the mean time between major failures ? Under typical maintenance, how many road miles between drivetrain failures ?

These are the types of questions that need to be answered.
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
It is not better today .
You keep claiming that but provide no sources.

Mad Dog
The rubber of a MBT must be replaced after 700 miles,major repair is needed after 2000 miles,after 1 hour of operations, a M1A1 needs 8 man hours of maintenance ,cost per mile 288,37 USD, cost to maintain one Abrams for one year 300,000 USD .
45 0f 140 Iraqi Abrams were out of action by enemy fire,50 by non combat losses,only 40 remained operational .
Source : History of the M1A
in 5 months ( January-June 2014 ) 28 were damaged by ISIL .
Time : Abrams not expected in Ukraine for months :reason :turbine engine problems .
Popular Mechanics : Abrams is getting too heavy (from 54 to 73 tons )
Ukrainian bridges can not sustain tanks of 73 tons .
GAO about the Abrams :efforts to address engine recuperate problems
Examples are countless .

ljadw
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Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 29 Jan 2023 10:22

About the CSG : Look at the Czech-Russian Arms Trade Connection (source : Real Clair Defense )

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Aida1
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 29 Jan 2023 11:51

ljadw wrote:
29 Jan 2023 10:17
Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023 22:44
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
Tom Peters wrote:
28 Jan 2023 01:12
ljadw wrote:
27 Jan 2023 09:49
Today's tanks are not more reliable than the tanks of WW2
Got any proof of that ? mean time between major overhauls ? Typical engine lifetime ? barrel longevity ? Anything ?

Mad Dog
How long took it to ''modernize '' ( modernize is not make operational ) 20 Moroccan tanks ?
What does that have to do with my question ? Do you have any actual information on attainment rates or similar data ?

Yes or No ?
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
After the fall of Saddam Iraq received 140 tanks and in December 2014 only 40 of these were still operational .
So in 9 years only a few are left operational ? Whats the time frame ? Were they sitting in warehouses ? There is no context here.

For tanks in active operational use, what is the mean time between major failures ? Under typical maintenance, how many road miles between drivetrain failures ?

These are the types of questions that need to be answered.
ljadw wrote:
28 Jan 2023 08:13
It is not better today .
You keep claiming that but provide no sources.

Mad Dog
The rubber of a MBT must be replaced after 700 miles,major repair is needed after 2000 miles,after 1 hour of operations, a M1A1 needs 8 man hours of maintenance ,cost per mile 288,37 USD, cost to maintain one Abrams for one year 300,000 USD .
45 0f 140 Iraqi Abrams were out of action by enemy fire,50 by non combat losses,only 40 remained operational .
Source : History of the M1A
in 5 months ( January-June 2014 ) 28 were damaged by ISIL .
Time : Abrams not expected in Ukraine for months :reason :turbine engine problems .
Popular Mechanics : Abrams is getting too heavy (from 54 to 73 tons )
Ukrainian bridges can not sustain tanks of 73 tons .
GAO about the Abrams :efforts to address engine recuperate problems
Examples are countless .
Just throwing together a loose number of 'facts' that suit you without attempting to make a rational argument. A typical example of intellectual dishonesty.
The Abrams tank has a solid reputation.

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 29 Jan 2023 15:42

A solid reputation at General Dynamics and its agents on Capitol Hill.

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