The end of tanks as we know it?

Discussions on other historical eras.
ljadw
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2023 11:35

How many Patriots have been sent to Ukraine, when did they arrive , are they operational ?
Same for RU tanks .
Same for HIMARS .

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Feb 2023 14:52

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 11:35
How many Patriots have been sent to Ukraine, when did they arrive , are they operational ?
Same for RU tanks .
Same for HIMARS .
You could look that up yourself if you wanted. :lol: :lol:

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Feb 2023 14:53

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 11:27
Tom Peters wrote:
01 Feb 2023 03:28
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 16:26

And you believe pledges of Western governments ?
Sure do. HIMARS promised - HIMARS sent. Tanks (RU models) promised - Tanks sent. SAMP/T, Patriot, etc. all promised, all sent.

Pretty good track record.

Mad Dog
Western tanks promised :not sent and no one knows when ,if these tanks will arrive .
Very dumb posting as the promise has just been made . :roll: :roll:

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2023 16:53

Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 17:34
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 16:29
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 13:42
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 08:34
Those who are still talking about the few qualitative superior Western tanks who will easily eliminate the inferior Russian tanks ,fail to answer the question if Western tanks will meet Russian tanks,as we are talking about a very long front :in August Zelensky said that the front had a length of 2500 km, in December the Dupuy Institute was talking about a length of some 1000 km .As the Ukrainians are now on the defensive, how do they use their tanks ?Do they spread them over the front as did the French in 1939-1940 or do they concentrate them on one point ?
The Ukranians asked for them so they know how they want to use them. :roll: :roll:
The Russians decide how the Ukrainians would use tanks that never have been used against Russian tanks, not Britain or the US .
Not really and western tanks have certainly taken on russian supplied tanks in the past. Their qualities are welknown except by you.. :lol: :lol:
NBC 20 January 2023 :
1'' US Defense secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that the Abrams tank is not the right vehicle to fight now in Ukraine .
2 A spokesman of the National Security Council said :
the Abrams tanks are very expensive to operate, very expensive to fuel,very expensive to maintain and require a lot of training .''
One could ask if the Abrams was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of General Dynamics .

Today the Dutch TV said that Spain said that it had in Saragossa a depot with 53 Leo2s, and that ,after several months, they could make 4 or maybe 6 of them operational .
One could ask if the Leo2 was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of Rheinmetall .

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 01 Feb 2023 18:56

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 16:53
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 17:34
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 16:29
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 13:42
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 08:34
Those who are still talking about the few qualitative superior Western tanks who will easily eliminate the inferior Russian tanks ,fail to answer the question if Western tanks will meet Russian tanks,as we are talking about a very long front :in August Zelensky said that the front had a length of 2500 km, in December the Dupuy Institute was talking about a length of some 1000 km .As the Ukrainians are now on the defensive, how do they use their tanks ?Do they spread them over the front as did the French in 1939-1940 or do they concentrate them on one point ?
The Ukranians asked for them so they know how they want to use them. :roll: :roll:
The Russians decide how the Ukrainians would use tanks that never have been used against Russian tanks, not Britain or the US .
Not really and western tanks have certainly taken on russian supplied tanks in the past. Their qualities are welknown except by you.. :lol: :lol:
NBC 20 January 2023 :
1'' US Defense secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that the Abrams tank is not the right vehicle to fight now in Ukraine .
2 A spokesman of the National Security Council said :
the Abrams tanks are very expensive to operate, very expensive to fuel,very expensive to maintain and require a lot of training .''
One could ask if the Abrams was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of General Dynamics .

Today the Dutch TV said that Spain said that it had in Saragossa a depot with 53 Leo2s, and that ,after several months, they could make 4 or maybe 6 of them operational .
One could ask if the Leo2 was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of Rheinmetall .
The abrams tank has proven itself in battle since a long time. The Leopard 2 is held in very high regard. You only show your conspirationism and complete lack of any knowledge. :lol: :lol:
https://youtu.be/CHAu-3Bd0mU
https://youtu.be/plig-9dBb3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4inbgmbUD8

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2730
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 12:24
Location: London

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 01 Feb 2023 19:28

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 16:53

Today the Dutch TV said that Spain said that it had in Saragossa a depot with 53 Leo2s, and that ,after several months, they could make 4 or maybe 6 of them operational .
One could ask if the Leo2 was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of Rheinmetall .
El Pais has, unsurprisingly, more on this:

"Spain is planning to send between four and six Leopard 2A4 tanks to Ukraine, according to government sources. The final figure will depend on the condition of the 53 tanks that have been stored for a decade at the Logistics Support Group Number 41 in Zaragoza, and whose urgent reconditioning is being negotiated by the Ministry of Defense and the military industry. Spain’s final contribution will also depend on what other countries offer Kyiv. So far, Germany has announced the delivery of 14 Leopard 2 battle tanks “as a first step,” while Canada has pledged four.

Speed will be the predominant factor, since the informal coalition providing Kyiv with the German tanks has set as a goal for the Ukrainian Army to have two battalions ready for action by the spring.

The estimated time for the overhaul of the Spanish Leopard 2 tanks (which could exceed half a million euros per unit, according to experts) will coincide with the two and a half months of the training course that the Spanish Army has designed for Ukrainian crews. This is an extraordinarily short period, but it is considered sufficient if the crews are already specialized in battle tanks, even if they are different models, and if the most is made of practice time through the intensive use of training simulators and software such as the Steel Beast, a kind of video game adapted for different combat vehicles.

The training was requested by the Ukrainian Defense Minister and will be carried out at the San Gregorio National Training Center (CNAD), on the outskirts of Zaragoza in northern Spain. This facility has dynamic Leopard simulators to recreate the movements of the armored vehicle in full motion, and four turret simulators developed by the Spanish IT and defense systems firm Indra that can provide simultaneous training for a complete tank section crew. In addition, there are several Leopard 2A4s on site just like those that will be supplied to Ukraine, and these will be used in real exercises in the adjacent 30,000-hectare training field.

The plan is to begin training sessions as soon as possible for at least 10 crews (made up of a driver, shooter, loader and tank leader), as well as mechanical and maintenance personnel."

https://english.elpais.com/internationa ... raine.html

Training 10 crews maybe indicative.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2023 20:56

The fact remains that it takes at least 10 weeks to have 10 % of the tanks in a depot in Saragossa operational and that is without the time needed to transport these tanks to Ukraine .'' The training sessions will begin as soon as possible '' :this means that no one knows when the training sessions will begin : February ?March ? April? May ? ......
If after 10 weeks 90 % of these tanks are still not operational,or are used to be cannibalized to make the other 10 % operational .
This says a lot about the condition of these tanks and one can seriously and honestly ask the question if the 3 million Euro used to try to make 6 tanks operational,is not a total wast ,as there is no proof that the result will be that these tanks will be operational in May .
The only thing we know is that these tanks are more than 30 years old today and that in May they will still be more than 30 years old and that when they were used by Turkey in Syria against an opponent who had no tanks, the result was not good .
Why should the result be better now ?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2023 20:58

Aida1 wrote:
01 Feb 2023 18:56
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 16:53
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 17:34
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 16:29
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 13:42


The Ukranians asked for them so they know how they want to use them. :roll: :roll:
The Russians decide how the Ukrainians would use tanks that never have been used against Russian tanks, not Britain or the US .
Not really and western tanks have certainly taken on russian supplied tanks in the past. Their qualities are welknown except by you.. :lol: :lol:
NBC 20 January 2023 :
1'' US Defense secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that the Abrams tank is not the right vehicle to fight now in Ukraine .
2 A spokesman of the National Security Council said :
the Abrams tanks are very expensive to operate, very expensive to fuel,very expensive to maintain and require a lot of training .''
One could ask if the Abrams was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of General Dynamics .

Today the Dutch TV said that Spain said that it had in Saragossa a depot with 53 Leo2s, and that ,after several months, they could make 4 or maybe 6 of them operational .
One could ask if the Leo2 was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of Rheinmetall .
The abrams tank has proven itself in battle since a long time. The Leopard 2 is held in very high regard. You only show your conspirationism and complete lack of any knowledge. :lol: :lol:
https://youtu.be/CHAu-3Bd0mU
https://youtu.be/plig-9dBb3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4inbgmbUD8
I see : you think that you know more than Austin and Milley . Maybe Biden could fire them and nominate you as their successor .

Gooner1
Member
Posts: 2730
Joined: 06 Jan 2006 12:24
Location: London

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 01 Feb 2023 23:24

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 20:56
The fact remains that it takes at least 10 weeks to have 10 % of the tanks in a depot in Saragossa operational and that is without the time needed to transport these tanks to Ukraine .'' The training sessions will begin as soon as possible '' :this means that no one knows when the training sessions will begin : February ?March ? April? May ? ......
If after 10 weeks 90 % of these tanks are still not operational,or are used to be cannibalized to make the other 10 % operational .
Why didn't you read the article and thinking a bit rather than spewing drivel?

This is probably the most important biy:

"Speed will be the predominant factor, since the informal coalition providing Kyiv with the German tanks has set as a goal for the Ukrainian Army to have two battalions ready for action by the spring."

Do you need me to explain to you how many tanks make up two battalions? How many countries make up the tank 'coalition'? Or when Spring ends?

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2023 23:51

ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 07:41
Gorque wrote:
30 Jan 2023 02:29
ljadw wrote:
29 Jan 2023 20:03
Gorque wrote:
29 Jan 2023 19:17
Gooner1 wrote:
29 Jan 2023 16:24


I know where he got the 8 hours maintenance to 1 hour of operations 'fact'

Thomas Morse, former USMC tank officer
"The general rule is that for one hour of operations an M1A1 will need 8 hours of maintenance. This is ‘man-hours’, so a crew of four will need to conduct 2:1 maintenance to operation. Much of this maintenance is preventative in nature; checking and changing oils and fluids, track-tension and adjustment, verifying optics are still functioning properly, etc. A lot of preventative maintenance is actually checking for parts that are wearing out or failing, but haven’t caused a system to fail yet; and then replacing them."
https://www.quora.com/For-how-long-can- ... pare-parts

Routine checks that a well trained tank crew would do automatically and Russian mobiks probably don't.

Be interested to know where the 'fact' that Ukrainian bridges can't take a 75 ton tank came from. It must be awkward when two 40 ton lorries pass each other.
Good find! :thumbsup:
About the bridges : from Breaking Defense '' What is a main battle tank and how will Ukraine use them "'
''Perhaps most problematic of all, at 55-plus metric tons, they ( = Western tanks ) are too heavy to safely cross many Ukrainian bridges ''.
The same problem exists in Poland .
Thus : not a ''fact '' but a fact .
I noticed that you didn't reply to Gooner's statement " It must be awkward when two 40 ton lorries pass each other."
Do two 40 ton lorries pass each other on a bridge that can sustain only 45 tons ?
It can happen, two 40 ton lorries simultaneously heading in the same direction at the same time, and when it does does this mean that the bridge will collapse from the combined 80 ton weight? More weight than a western tank. So what will happen?

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 1662
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2023 23:56

Yuri wrote:
31 Jan 2023 14:28
Gorque wrote:
30 Jan 2023 22:49
Yuri wrote:
30 Jan 2023 02:37
Gorque wrote:
30 Jan 2023 02:29
ljadw wrote:
29 Jan 2023 20:03


About the bridges : from Breaking Defense '' What is a main battle tank and how will Ukraine use them "'
''Perhaps most problematic of all, at 55-plus metric tons, they ( = Western tanks ) are too heavy to safely cross many Ukrainian bridges ''.
The same problem exists in Poland .
Thus : not a ''fact '' but a fact .
I noticed that you didn't reply to Gooner's statement " It must be awkward when two 40 ton lorries pass each other."
You must have never driven on roads where signs are installed limiting the weight of the vehicle: for example, a sign limiting the weight on one axle of a truck to 8 tons or, for example, a sign limiting the total weight of a vehicle to 20 tons.
No? didn't you go?

For your information, in Russia, not only on bridges, but even on roads during certain periods of time, which are called autumn and spring rasputitsa, the movement of heavy wheeled trucks is prohibited, not to mention tracked vehicles.
Here's a hint; Don't take up mind-reading as a vocation. You'd fail spectacularly.
Signs of restriction.jpg
Signs:
3.11) limitation of weight;
3.12) limitation of the mass per axle of the vehicle;
3.13) limitation of height;
3.14) limitation of width;
3.15) limitation of length.
If a sign 3.11 with the number 7Т is installed in front of a bridge, then if not two cars of 40 tons each come to such a bridge, but even one car weighing 20 tons, then our bridge will fail spectacularly.
And yet you still think I'm unfamiliar with road signs. Keep practicing your mind reading. Perhaps one of these days you just might get it right.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 02 Feb 2023 08:08

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 20:56
The fact remains that it takes at least 10 weeks to have 10 % of the tanks in a depot in Saragossa operational and that is without the time needed to transport these tanks to Ukraine .'' The training sessions will begin as soon as possible '' :this means that no one knows when the training sessions will begin : February ?March ? April? May ? ......
If after 10 weeks 90 % of these tanks are still not operational,or are used to be cannibalized to make the other 10 % operational .
This says a lot about the condition of these tanks and one can seriously and honestly ask the question if the 3 million Euro used to try to make 6 tanks operational,is not a total wast ,as there is no proof that the result will be that these tanks will be operational in May .
The only thing we know is that these tanks are more than 30 years old today and that in May they will still be more than 30 years old and that when they were used by Turkey in Syria against an opponent who had no tanks, the result was not good .
Why should the result be better now ?
You have no technical knowledge of tanks. You limit yourself to the usual trolling. :roll: :roll:

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 02 Feb 2023 08:10

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 20:58
Aida1 wrote:
01 Feb 2023 18:56
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 16:53
Aida1 wrote:
31 Jan 2023 17:34
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2023 16:29


The Russians decide how the Ukrainians would use tanks that never have been used against Russian tanks, not Britain or the US .
Not really and western tanks have certainly taken on russian supplied tanks in the past. Their qualities are welknown except by you.. :lol: :lol:
NBC 20 January 2023 :
1'' US Defense secretary and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said that the Abrams tank is not the right vehicle to fight now in Ukraine .
2 A spokesman of the National Security Council said :
the Abrams tanks are very expensive to operate, very expensive to fuel,very expensive to maintain and require a lot of training .''
One could ask if the Abrams was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of General Dynamics .

Today the Dutch TV said that Spain said that it had in Saragossa a depot with 53 Leo2s, and that ,after several months, they could make 4 or maybe 6 of them operational .
One could ask if the Leo2 was good for anything,except for the bank accounts of Rheinmetall .
The abrams tank has proven itself in battle since a long time. The Leopard 2 is held in very high regard. You only show your conspirationism and complete lack of any knowledge. :lol: :lol:
https://youtu.be/CHAu-3Bd0mU
https://youtu.be/plig-9dBb3Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4inbgmbUD8
I see : you think that you know more than Austin and Milley . Maybe Biden could fire them and nominate you as their successor .
They do not agree with you at all. :roll:

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15083
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 02 Feb 2023 09:06

Gooner1 wrote:
01 Feb 2023 23:24
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 20:56
The fact remains that it takes at least 10 weeks to have 10 % of the tanks in a depot in Saragossa operational and that is without the time needed to transport these tanks to Ukraine .'' The training sessions will begin as soon as possible '' :this means that no one knows when the training sessions will begin : February ?March ? April? May ? ......
If after 10 weeks 90 % of these tanks are still not operational,or are used to be cannibalized to make the other 10 % operational .
Why didn't you read the article and thinking a bit rather than spewing drivel?

This is probably the most important biy:

"Speed will be the predominant factor, since the informal coalition providing Kyiv with the German tanks has set as a goal for the Ukrainian Army to have two battalions ready for action by the spring."

Do you need me to explain to you how many tanks make up two battalions? How many countries make up the tank 'coalition'? Or when Spring ends?
Defense Express 31 January 2023
How long will it take to train Ukrainian tankers to use German Leo2s ?

'' Retraining on the Leo2 tank will be more difficult than retraining from one Soviet-type tank to an other because the tactics of using tanks in NATO are different from those in Russia .
And the training of the servicemen of the repair units will last longer than the retraining of the tankers .This could be 1.5 times longer .''
That the goal is to have two battalions ready for action by spring is meaningless blabla, because
a there is a big difference between two battalions ready on 1 March and two battalions ready on 1 June
b no on knows how long it will take to make these tanks who are now in mothballs, ready for combat ,and tankers without tanks are useless
c no one knows how long it will take to train the tankers and tanks without tankers are useless
d no one knows how long it will take to train the men of the repair units and tanks and tankers without repair units are useless
e no one knows if the needed fuel will be available and Leos without fuel are useless
f no one knows if the needed spare parts will be ready and tanks without spare parts are useless .
If two tank battalions are very important,they should have been sent in 2022
If two tank battalions are not important,there is no need to send them .
The Russians will not delay their offensive till these two battalions are operational and are in Ukraine . Or maybe you think that the West will ask the Russians to wait till these battalions are ready ?
As long as these battalions are not in Ukraine, they have no importance at all ,and as no one knows when they will be in Ukraine ,the whole thing is only a media stunt .
These battalions do not exist ,thus no need to talk about their possible future role .
To say that the goal is to have two battalions ready in Ukraine ,but not being able to say when is meaningless bla bla .

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 3711
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Aida1 » 02 Feb 2023 10:52

ljadw wrote:
02 Feb 2023 09:06
Gooner1 wrote:
01 Feb 2023 23:24
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2023 20:56
The fact remains that it takes at least 10 weeks to have 10 % of the tanks in a depot in Saragossa operational and that is without the time needed to transport these tanks to Ukraine .'' The training sessions will begin as soon as possible '' :this means that no one knows when the training sessions will begin : February ?March ? April? May ? ......
If after 10 weeks 90 % of these tanks are still not operational,or are used to be cannibalized to make the other 10 % operational .
Why didn't you read the article and thinking a bit rather than spewing drivel?

This is probably the most important biy:

"Speed will be the predominant factor, since the informal coalition providing Kyiv with the German tanks has set as a goal for the Ukrainian Army to have two battalions ready for action by the spring."

Do you need me to explain to you how many tanks make up two battalions? How many countries make up the tank 'coalition'? Or when Spring ends?
Defense Express 31 January 2023
How long will it take to train Ukrainian tankers to use German Leo2s ?

'' Retraining on the Leo2 tank will be more difficult than retraining from one Soviet-type tank to an other because the tactics of using tanks in NATO are different from those in Russia .
And the training of the servicemen of the repair units will last longer than the retraining of the tankers .This could be 1.5 times longer .''
That the goal is to have two battalions ready for action by spring is meaningless blabla, because
a there is a big difference between two battalions ready on 1 March and two battalions ready on 1 June
b no on knows how long it will take to make these tanks who are now in mothballs, ready for combat ,and tankers without tanks are useless
c no one knows how long it will take to train the tankers and tanks without tankers are useless
d no one knows how long it will take to train the men of the repair units and tanks and tankers without repair units are useless
e no one knows if the needed fuel will be available and Leos without fuel are useless
f no one knows if the needed spare parts will be ready and tanks without spare parts are useless .
If two tank battalions are very important,they should have been sent in 2022
If two tank battalions are not important,there is no need to send them .
The Russians will not delay their offensive till these two battalions are operational and are in Ukraine . Or maybe you think that the West will ask the Russians to wait till these battalions are ready ?
As long as these battalions are not in Ukraine, they have no importance at all ,and as no one knows when they will be in Ukraine ,the whole thing is only a media stunt .
These battalions do not exist ,thus no need to talk about their possible future role .
To say that the goal is to have two battalions ready in Ukraine ,but not being able to say when is meaningless bla bla .
Your usual trolling concerning subjects you have zero knowledge about. :lol: :lol:

Return to “Other eras”