The end of tanks as we know it?

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peeved
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by peeved » 18 Apr 2023 22:54

Cult Icon wrote:
18 Apr 2023 22:33
The de-turreted leopard is a bit more grotesque than the de-turreted T-series.
No Ukrainian tankers reportedly injured in the training accident whereas T-series tosser turrets usually vaporise at least three Orcs.

Markus

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Apr 2023 23:17

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Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 19 Apr 2023 03:13

ljadw wrote:
18 Apr 2023 06:46

Germany, Italy and Japan are not /no longer liberal democracies made in America .US attempts to transform them in California, NY,Illinois,etc have failed . Besides :Germany and Italy were already functioning democracies before 1933 and 1922 and Imperial Germany was more democratic before 1914 than were the US .
Europe has not become Americanized .
You never heard of Tocqueville ?
None of what you just said has any relevence to the fact that these countries were fascist dictatorships, and as a result of WW2, we (the west) imposed our wills on them to become democracies.

Try Again.

Mad Dog

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 19 Apr 2023 03:15

peeved wrote:
18 Apr 2023 22:54
Cult Icon wrote:
18 Apr 2023 22:33
The de-turreted leopard is a bit more grotesque than the de-turreted T-series.
No Ukrainian tankers reportedly injured in the training accident whereas T-series tosser turrets usually vaporise at least three Orcs.

Markus
The L2 in question will be repaired. The turret tossing T-series is fit only for scrap metal.

Mad Dog

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 19 Apr 2023 07:59

Tom Peters wrote:
19 Apr 2023 03:13
ljadw wrote:
18 Apr 2023 06:46

Germany, Italy and Japan are not /no longer liberal democracies made in America .US attempts to transform them in California, NY,Illinois,etc have failed . Besides :Germany and Italy were already functioning democracies before 1933 and 1922 and Imperial Germany was more democratic before 1914 than were the US .
Europe has not become Americanized .
You never heard of Tocqueville ?
None of what you just said has any relevence to the fact that these countries were fascist dictatorships, and as a result of WW2, we (the west) imposed our wills on them to become democracies.

Try Again.

Mad Dog
Germany was not a fascist dictatorships, because, opposite to what Americans are thinking :fascism and national socialism are two different things .
You said that Germany, Italy and Japan have taken over the culture and values of the US and this is totally wrong . These countries were already democracies before WW1 and after WW1 til the great depression .
Besides :US is not a democracy but a republic .
Last point : we ( the west ) is an other word for US .

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 20 Apr 2023 03:16

ljadw wrote:
19 Apr 2023 07:59


Germany was not a fascist dictatorships.....
Sure thing ljadw. Sure thing. NO fascism in Nazi Germany. Got it. /s
ljadw wrote:
19 Apr 2023 07:59
You said that Germany, Italy and Japan have taken over the culture and values of the US and this is totally wrong . These countries were already democracies before WW1 and after WW1 til the great depression .
You didnt read again.

They were NOT democracies in WW2. They WERE afterwords. <---- culture imposed by the west.

its simple. Keep trying. or not.

Mad Dog

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 20 Apr 2023 07:10

Germany was a nazi dictatorship between 1933 and 1945,not a fascist dictatorship .
And Weimar was a democracy, as was Imperial Germany : the German socialists were the strongest party in Germany before 1914 and before 1914 the army was not used to shoot on strikers in Germany, as was the case in France, Italy, Russia, Belgium,Britain, US ,etc,....
And it was Bismarck who started the Welfare State .
In Germany before 1914 there was a general single voting right for all adult men,something which did not exist in the US or in Britain, Belgium,..
And, after WW2 US tried to impose their values on Europe, but they failed .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 21 Apr 2023 13:47

RAMSTEIN AIR BASE, GERMANY —
U.S.-made M1A1 Abrams tanks will arrive in Germany in May, and Ukrainians will start training on them soon after, according to senior military officials.

Thirty-one Abrams tanks will arrive at a base in Grafenwöhr, Germany, next month so that Ukrainians can start a 10-week course on how to operate the tanks. Additional force-on-force training and maintenance courses will be held at either Grafenwöhr or another base in Hohenfels, Germany, officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss security matters.

The U.S.-led training will involve about 250 Ukrainians, and officials say 31 Abrams tanks will be delivered to Ukraine by the fall, which is much earlier than initially expected.

The training tanks will not be the ones that will go to Ukraine as it fights against Russia’s invasion. Those are being refurbished in the United States and will go to the frontlines when they are ready, according to officials.
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-seeks-to-s ... 60210.html
So, probably no earlier than September before they can appear on the battlefield.

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Yuri
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Yuri » 22 Apr 2023 12:02

Gooner1 wrote:
21 Apr 2023 13:47
RAMSTEIN AIR BASE, GERMANY —
U.S.-made M1A1 Abrams tanks will arrive in Germany in May, and Ukrainians will start training on them soon after, according to senior military officials.

Thirty-one Abrams tanks will arrive at a base in Grafenwöhr, Germany, next month so that Ukrainians can start a 10-week course on how to operate the tanks. Additional force-on-force training and maintenance courses will be held at either Grafenwöhr or another base in Hohenfels, Germany, officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss security matters.

The U.S.-led training will involve about 250 Ukrainians, and officials say 31 Abrams tanks will be delivered to Ukraine by the fall, which is much earlier than initially expected.

The training tanks will not be the ones that will go to Ukraine as it fights against Russia’s invasion. Those are being refurbished in the United States and will go to the frontlines when they are ready, according to officials.
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-seeks-to-s ... 60210.html
So, probably no earlier than September before they can appear on the battlefield.
If you want to ruin the state, give him an ABRAMS tank.
According to Russian officers who had the opportunity to drive tanks of Western countries (Leclerc, Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and ABRAMS) and shoot them, the best Western tank is the French Leclerc, the German Leopard 2 is a good tank, but French is preferable.
The American ABRAMS tank is an unsuccessful copy of the Leopard 2.
For every hour of Leopard 2 combat work, 7-8 hours of maintenance are needed, for ABRAMS it takes 9-12 hours. The crew of the T-72 tank hardly knows that the tank needs to be serviced.
ABRAMS consumes as much fuel as it takes to platoon T-72 tanks.
The cost of one ABRAMS is equal to the cost of two platoons (more precisely seven tanks) of the T-72 or the cost of a battalion and one company (more precisely 50 tanks) of the T-55.
In infantry combat, Western tanks have no chance, in such a battle the main defensive means is maneuverability.
Western tanks are good as an anti-tank weapon. In our climatic and geological conditions, Western tanks are guaranteed a logistical nightmare. The latter is confirmed by the logistical nightmare that has to be with the tracked tarantass PzH 2000.
Of the first batch of 14 tracked tarantas, six are undergoing major repairs in Europe, one is going for major repairs, one is returning from major repairs. There are six tracked tarantas in combat positions, of which one or two require routine repairs. Thus, only four or five tracked tarantas can fire.
The tracked tarantas operate as follows.
In order not to become victims of the Lancet kamikaze drones, the starting positions of the tracked tarantas are located 70 km from the front line.
After receiving data for firing, the tracked tarantas move at maximum speed to the front line and stop at a distance of 30-50 km, fire three to five shots from their 155 mm guns, then immediately curl up and rush back.
In total, we have: 14 tracked tarantas with a total cost of 224 million euros and a colossal cost for maintenance are capable of shooting 25 155 mm shells towards the enemy at the best.

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Yuri
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Yuri » 22 Apr 2023 12:28

An interesting episode.
The actions of the Russian tank on the enemy's stronghold.
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/43210

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Gooner1 » 22 Apr 2023 12:30

Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
[
For every hour of Leopard 2 combat work, 7-8 hours of maintenance are needed, for ABRAMS it takes 9-12 hours. The crew of the T-72 tank hardly knows that the tank needs to be serviced.
Well, that helps explain why Russian tanks have performed so poorly ...

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 22 Apr 2023 17:41

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The gunner's seat of the T-72B3.

1. The switchboard on the left. It contains 10 circuit breakers (circuit breaker relay), 8 of which are fuses and 2 - fuse-switches.

2. Sosna-U multichannel gunner's sight with an optical day channel eyepiece. It is the main sight.

3. The control panel of the thermal imaging camera (TC). The gunner uses the thermal imaging camera controls on the panel to adjust the image for maximum clarity.

4. Smoke screen control panel 902B "Tucha". Needed for setting up a smoke screen with a single grenade or a series of grenades.

5. AVSKU panel (internal communication, switching and control equipment). Designed to provide internal communication between crew members and switching of data transmission equipment channels to various channel-forming facilities of the facility.

6. Toggle switch for automatic target tracking system (ATC). It includes the automatic (manual) target acquisition and tracking system built into the "Sosna-U".

7. The gunner's video-vision device (VVS). It displays images from a thermal imaging camera on the monitor and allows the gunner to observe the situation and fire at the intended target.

8. Azimuthal indicator of the turret rotation mechanism. It is used to determine the rotation angle of the turret relative to the hull.

9. The handle of the turret locking mechanism. Stops the turret rotation and prevents the turret rotation drive from engaging.

Tom Peters
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Tom Peters » 22 Apr 2023 19:50

Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02

If you want to ruin the state, give him an ABRAMS tank.
Well it ruined the Iraqi state pretty well. Just ask the Iraqi tankers who faced the Abrams.
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
According to Russian officers who had the opportunity to drive tanks of Western countries (Leclerc, Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and ABRAMS) and shoot them, the best Western tank is the French Leclerc, the German Leopard 2 is a good tank, but French is preferable.
The American ABRAMS tank is an unsuccessful copy of the Leopard 2.
Given the poor overall performance of the RU armor crews, Im not sure if I would take their word as gospel.
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
ABRAMS consumes as much fuel as it takes to platoon T-72 tanks.
That may or may not have been true for the original powerpack, but never versions claim 0.6 miles/gal, compared to the T-72 claim of 0.8 miles/gal.

So, no the M1 does not consume like a T-72 platoon.
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
The cost of one ABRAMS is equal to the cost of two platoons (more precisely seven tanks) of the T-72 or the cost of a battalion and one company (more precisely 50 tanks) of the T-55.
Whats the cost of training those T-series crews, only to have them turned into charcoal when the ammo cooks off ?

Given the metric, one wonders why the T-55 isnt in production given its cost/unit superiority ?
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
In infantry combat, Western tanks have no chance, in such a battle the main defensive means is maneuverability.
Like having a useable reverse gear - which the T-72 does not have (ok, a really poor one).

Ground pressure for T-72 is about 12.7, vs 13.4 for the M1A1 (lb/in^2).
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
Western tanks are good as an anti-tank weapon. In our climatic and geological conditions, Western tanks are guaranteed a logistical nightmare. The latter is confirmed by the logistical nightmare that has to be with the tracked tarantass PzH 2000.
Of the first batch of 14 tracked tarantas, six are undergoing major repairs in Europe, one is going for major repairs, one is returning from major repairs. There are six tracked tarantas in combat positions, of which one or two require routine repairs. Thus, only four or five tracked tarantas can fire.
No PzH2000 has been destroyed. Clearly the UKR are flogging them pretty hard, but at least they can be repaired.

Yuri, do you know the RU capacity for barrel manufacture ? I cant find any hard data.
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
In total, we have: 14 tracked tarantas with a total cost of 224 million euros and a colossal cost for maintenance are capable of shooting 25 155 mm shells towards the enemy at the best.
Cost of PzH2000 to UKR: zero
Cost of PzH2000 to RU: equipment, men and supply casualties

Mad Dog

ljadw
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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by ljadw » 23 Apr 2023 09:34

Gooner1 wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:30
Yuri wrote:
22 Apr 2023 12:02
[
For every hour of Leopard 2 combat work, 7-8 hours of maintenance are needed, for ABRAMS it takes 9-12 hours. The crew of the T-72 tank hardly knows that the tank needs to be serviced.
Well, that helps explain why Russian tanks have performed so poorly ...
What is : so poorly ?
And Leo 2 tanks of the Turkish army also did not very well when Turkey invaded Syria ( there were no oil sanctions from DC against Turkey ) .

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Re: The end of tanks as we know it?

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Apr 2023 13:47

10. The breech block of the 2A46M-5 launcher cannon.


11. Manual turret turning mechanism. Serves for manual turret rotation in emergency mode.

12. Sighting control panel. Designed for pointing the gun and aiming through the Sosna-U sight (main mode) or 1A40-4 (backup mode).

13. The automatic loader control panel. The gunner uses it to select the type of ammunition required and load the gun with the automatic loader.

14. Prismatic gunner's observation device TPN-165A. Designed for observation of the surrounding terrain in the daytime without the use of sights.

15. 1A40-4 reserve rangefinder sight. Designed for observation and firing from the tank gun and twin machine gun in backup mode.

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