War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

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War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Cult Icon » 04 Apr 2022 14:33

War crimes are now topical after the Russian withdrawal from Kyiv.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Reigo2 » 04 Apr 2022 17:06

To continue from here: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=263536#p2402073

Eugene Finkel (Associate Professor, Johns Hopkins SAIS), after Bucha events and reading the article by Timofei Sergeitsev in Russian state outlet RIA Novosti:
Got questions about why I think it is genocide. Until this morning I resisted applying the term. War crimes? Sure. Heinous rhetoric? You bet. What changed is the combination of more and more evidence, from different places, and even more importantly, explicit official rhetoric.

The official legal definition of genocide is "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such". When I teach genocide I start by saying that this definition has huge problems because it doesn't give us clear thresholds (what "in part" does even mean?) and because it is almost impossible to prove intent. People who carry out genocide are usually not idiots, if there are orders at all they would be given orally.

But, several things are important to realize. First, something that doesn't start as genocide might evolve into one when conditions change. Russian invasion, in my view, did not start with clear genocidal intent, but evolved into one. Regime change and colonial subjugation are by themselves not enough to constitute genocide. Second, more vidence that Bucha is not an exception. Each massacre might be local initiative, together they are a campaign. And most importantly, the RIA Novosti (a state outlet) piece is one of the most explicit statements of intent to destroy a national group as such that I've ever seen know Russian. I have read a lot of Russian nationalist rhetoric in my life. This is not some wild intellectual fantasy, it is a clear, actionable statement of intent by a state agency. The UN definition is problematic, but in this case it fits like a glove.
https://twitter.com/eugene_finkel/statu ... 9991812098

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Reigo2 » 05 Apr 2022 05:49

More and more hints are appearing that Bucha was not an isolated incident but lethal "denazification" campaign was/is going on also on other occupied territories.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in ... hurshudyan
Then, in one southern Ukrainian village, the Russians stormed through the front yard of a 59-year-old math teacher and took him away in their armored vehicle, his wife said.

Tatiana Bozhiko said they accused her husband, Serhii, of sympathizing with Ukraine’s right-wing Azov Battalion. But Serhii never served in the military or belonged to any militias, she said. Tatiana suspected his real crime was that he had the most pro-Ukrainian viewpoints in town and didn’t hide them.

When Tatiana saw her husband the next day, his face was covered in bruises and his arm was in a sling, she said. He had been shot in the elbow. The Russians still didn’t release him.

“They promised me he’d be home in the evening,” she said.

...

In Lotskyne, a farming village of some 2,000 people, Tatiana Bozhiko continued searching for her husband even after the Russians suddenly left the area on March 18. Her neighbors found his dead body buried the next morning. She said they spotted the grave because one broken arm was sticking up from the freshly piled mound of dirt.

...

Villagers here in the Mykolaiv area said soldiers repeatedly threatened them at gunpoint. They broke into the stores and looted ice cream and produce, locals said. Some people said their cars were stolen. Others described the soldiers forcing them out of their homes so they could live there.

Everyone had a story about the Russians searching for people the Kremlin and Putin have claimed are fascists — part of Moscow’s false propaganda that was used to justify starting an unprovoked war against Ukraine. People in the villages said they told the soldiers there were no Nazis there.
It is a question if the Russians have planned any kind of trials for the "Nazis" (read: supporters of Ukrainian independence) or they will be simply shot "behind the corner". Possibly only the most prominent figures would face a trial according to the plan. If this is the case then this is an "advancement" from the Soviet system which set the general rule that there must be a formal trial.

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Martin_from_Valhalla » 05 Apr 2022 06:03

Now, Putin will bomb some blocks of flats in Russia as he used to do earlier and say 'it was Ukrainian revenge'. It might help to boost annual mobilization which started on 1st April and failed so far.

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Apr 2022 06:24

Before the war in the Washington Post there was an article claiming that the Russians had compiled a list of enemies in the Ukraine that they intended to summarily execute or imprison once they landed in the Ukraine. The news of something bad happened in Bucha was known weeks ago in Ukr news/social media. (hundreds of dead, mayor kidnapped). It's just that the details were not wildy known until now.

Of course Bucha and perhaps more is stimulating/effective for getting the West to donate more aid, and keeping the topic of Ukraine current over here in the US. The Will Smith Slap took some attention away from Zelensky- Bucha brought it back!

From a military standpoint the fact that the Russians left the North a humanitarian disaster zone with ruins, lots of dead civilians/missing persons, and booby-traps does buy them some more time for the Donbass offensive. Longer term it would only increase Ukr morale, but I suspect that Putin will end his war after he finishes the job in the East.

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by wm » 05 Apr 2022 08:11

Screen Shot 2022-04-05 at 09.10.35.png
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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Reigo2 » 05 Apr 2022 08:17

War crimes by the other side: There have been several videos which probably/possibly contain Ukrainians killing or wounding captured Russian military personnel. There were also claims in Russian resources that some of the prisoners who were returned to Russia during the exchanges were mutilated (castration, fingers cut off). Since no video or picture evidence was presented also part of the Russian patriots were sceptical of this (Ukrainians would be complete fools if they would send mutilated prisoners back to Russia).

When reading Russian patriotic forums (such as vif2ne.org) or bloggers one can see the outrage/bitterness they express on these crimes against prisoners. This is accompanied by the expression of belief that Bucha was completely staged and at the same time they suggest to themselves that they are fighting a just war because it is evident that they are opposed by beastly war criminals. In general many seems to have the opinion that Russia is fighting a completeley clean war in Ukraine (maybe only the guys with Neo-Nazi tattoos are shot when captured, but this is OK). Every other claim is by default enemy false propaganda and not to be taken seriously.

Some Russian patriots complain that if only the Westerners would see this evidence (about the kiling of Russian soldiers) then they would understand that they support Evil. But unfortunately Western mass media is almost completely controlled by Anti-Russian powers.

My impression is that these persons live in a distorted fantasy world similar to flat-earth-conspiracy thinking. The fact that Russia started an aggressive war and lost already 90% of propaganda war by doing this, is something they decide to ignore. The hope that if Westerners only could see the videos of Russian prisoners killed then things would change is a childish one. They seem not to understand that for the Western audience in general it is likely that occasional war crimes are done by both sides. However for Westerners Russia is conducting a full scale criminal policy - a war started by Russia has resulted a large amount of civilian collateral damage plus the now emerging evidence of violent/lethal targeted "denazification" or maybe even plans of a genocide.

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Reigo2 » 05 Apr 2022 09:06

Cult Icon wrote:
05 Apr 2022 06:24
Longer term it would only increase Ukr morale, but I suspect that Putin will end his war after he finishes the job in the East.
Unfortunately not likely in my opinion.
Treat Putin seriously. He is not a Western politician. He has a long term plan and he is going after it: destroy Ukraine, regain control of former Soviet States and dominate Eastern Europe. Break NATO. Force the US out. He is at war with us. We are the Main Enemy.
Wesley Clark Apr 4, 2022
https://twitter.com/GeneralClark/status ... 1115571206

Finally somebody with some authority (I hope) has said it out.

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by wm » 05 Apr 2022 11:37

Those were Stalin's, later Soviet, goals too, and to a lesser degree, Russian tsars'.
Although good general forgot about Bosphorus, another must-have.
Actually, during ww1, the Allies agreed to hand over Bosphorus to Russia, but then Russia disintegrated and went to hell fast.
Putin basically fights 19th-century wars.
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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Apr 2022 13:48

Reigo2 wrote:
05 Apr 2022 09:06
Unfortunately not likely in my opinion.
Wesley Clark Apr 4, 2022
https://twitter.com/GeneralClark/status ... 1115571206

Finally somebody with some authority (I hope) has said it out.
Wesley Clark is the man that almost got the US in combat with Russia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_ ... na_airport

"The British commander of the Kosovo Force, General Mike Jackson, however, refused to block the Russians through military action saying "I'm not going to start the Third World War for you."

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Re: War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian War

Post by Reigo2 » 05 Apr 2022 13:50

Damn, no authority then. To bad because he seems to be right at least this time.

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