Towed arty

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Kingfish
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Towed arty

Post by Kingfish » 09 Apr 2022 13:10

Image
From of a youtube video alleging this to be what is left of a Russian arty unit (D30?) in Ukraine.

My question is, in a world populated by missile-armed drones and radar-guided MRLS - neither of which is a new technology - why are the Russians still deploying towed arty, let alone in an open field?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Sheldrake
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Re: Towed arty

Post by Sheldrake » 09 Apr 2022 13:16

Towed artillery is relatively cheap. The Russians have lots of shells and indirect firepower is effective. When armies run out of expensive MLRS then field artillery is still very effective. My guess is that much of the destruction in the uKrain has been by cheap unguided muniitons.

Open fields are not a bad place to deploy artillery, as long as you dig in or move frequently. In an open landscape it is better to avoid obvious terrain features that might attract speculative fire.

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Apr 2022 13:37

This towed artillery probably belongs to the LPR/DPR milita?

The Ukrainians primarily rely on towed artillery (152mm guns) supplemented by SP artillery. The Russian units primarily use self-propelled 152mm and 122mm guns. They also attach drone units to their artillery batteries as forward observers.

In general their BTG (battlegroup drawn out from professional and contract soldiers minus conscripts), is one company tanks, 2-4 small (80man) company mechanized infantry mounted on BMP or BTR, 2-4 batteries artillery (SP heavy artillery and MLRS).

The armored BTG is one battalion tanks, 1 company mechanized infantry, 2-4 batteries artillery.

Approx. 1 BTG is drawn from regiment, 1-2 BTG from brigade sized units.

Also operational in Ukraine are independent artillery brigades.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 09 Apr 2022 14:12, edited 1 time in total.

Reigo2
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Re: Towed arty

Post by Reigo2 » 09 Apr 2022 14:10


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Re: Towed arty

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Apr 2022 14:15

When these people claim/describe it as "Russian" it is not necessarily Russian army. It could be DPR/LPR units' artillery pieces. or even Ukrainian as the separatist militia use the same equipment. Right now we are seeing the militia fight closely with the regular army. I am not aware of regular Russian army formations uing towed artillery in their order of battle.

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Yuri
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Re: Towed arty

Post by Yuri » 09 Apr 2022 15:22

Cult Icon wrote:
09 Apr 2022 14:15
When these people claim/describe it as "Russian" it is not necessarily Russian army. It could be DPR/LPR units' artillery pieces. or even Ukrainian as the separatist militia use the same equipment. Right now we are seeing the militia fight closely with the regular army. I am not aware of regular Russian army formations uing towed artillery in their order of battle.
Yes, that's right, the DPR/LPR, of course, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine have these excellent howitzers.

The picture shows a 122 mm D-30 howitzer. This system was adopted in 1960 to replace the 122 mm M-30 howitzer of the 1938 model. In 1980, I was the commander of a firing platoon and my platoon just had these 122 mm howitzers. Very wonderful guns, you can drop 160 kg of explosives on the enemy's head in a minute, and 800 kg in five minutes, and almost 10 tons in one hour.
The battery has two firing platoons of 3 guns, which means there are 6 guns in total. In total, the battery will drop about 50 tons of explosives on the enemy's head in one hour, that is, a railway car.
The range of the shot is 15,000 m. The speed of movement on the highway is up to 80 km/ h. At the time when I served as a tug there was a Zil-131 car.

Here the howitzers are not dug in, however, if you make a proper trench, then it is not easy to destroy them, as it may seem. The assumption that towed artillery is currently an anachronism is a delusion.
Since 2013, the D-30 howitzer has been decommissioned by the Russian Ground Forces (however, it is still available in some places, for example in coastal defense). At the moment, in the Russian Federation, this howitzer is available in the airborne troops. Its weight is 3,200 kg, can be transported by helicopters or parachuted from airplanes.

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Yuri » 09 Apr 2022 15:48

Sheldrake wrote:
09 Apr 2022 13:16
Towed artillery is relatively cheap. The Russians have lots of shells and indirect firepower is effective. When armies run out of expensive MLRS then field artillery is still very effective. My guess is that much of the destruction in the uKrain has been by cheap unguided muniitons.

Open fields are not a bad place to deploy artillery, as long as you dig in or move frequently. In an open landscape it is better to avoid obvious terrain features that might attract speculative fire.
It is clear that You understand a lot about artillery.

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Reigo2 » 09 Apr 2022 16:59

Cult Icon wrote:
09 Apr 2022 14:15
When these people claim/describe it as "Russian" it is not necessarily Russian army. It could be DPR/LPR units' artillery pieces. or even Ukrainian as the separatist militia use the same equipment. Right now we are seeing the militia fight closely with the regular army. I am not aware of regular Russian army formations uing towed artillery in their order of battle.
DNR/LNR units do not operate in Mykolaiv, Kherson, Kyiv or Gostomel area - these Twitter pictures were claimed to be taken there. Claimed locations can be false information but at least the Gostomel one is highly likely indeed from there. Of course it is possible that they were Ukrainian ones but if you would try to arise your awarness via using Google then you would discover that Russian regular army actually has towed artillery in their order of battle.
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/count ... 528@egNews

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Reigo2 » 09 Apr 2022 17:12

Russian 227th Artillery Brigade which was probably active in Mikolayv/Kherson area in March is claimed to have Msta-B in their inventory. https://thereaderwiki.com/ru/2%D0%9065 Maybe obsolote information, don't know.

Information about Russian force composition on Mikolayv front in March: https://twitter.com/HN_Schlottman/statu ... 6177026051

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Cult Icon » 09 Apr 2022 17:18

Unfortunately I cannot access .RU websites, it is censored in the US.

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Reigo2 » 09 Apr 2022 17:20

Try VPN.

Edit. VPN probably won't help: https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/russian-mi ... commences/

Edit 2. Screenshot from https://function.mil.ru/news_page/count ... 528@egNews

So we have official Russian military source speaking 8 April 2022 about using Msta-B by the troops of the Eastern Military District.
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Re: Towed arty

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Apr 2022 23:52

Yuri wrote:
09 Apr 2022 15:22
...

Here the howitzers are not dug in, however, if you make a proper trench, then it is not easy to destroy them, as it may seem. The assumption that towed artillery is currently an anachronism is a delusion. ...
Have to agree. I don't see any evidence of any entrenchment for protection. Not even holes for individuals. The cannon and vehicles are too close together for my taste. Fifty meters between individual cannons was preferred in my training. Occasionally we spread out further. The vehicles would never be positioned this close to the cannon in our practice unless preparing to tow the cannon or deliver ammunition. Aside from holes or pits for individual protection we also had a set of smaller pits in the ground near the cannon for protecting the ready ammunition and redundant propellant charges.

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Yuri » 10 Apr 2022 08:23

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Apr 2022 23:52
Yuri wrote:
09 Apr 2022 15:22
...

Here the howitzers are not dug in, however, if you make a proper trench, then it is not easy to destroy them, as it may seem. The assumption that towed artillery is currently an anachronism is a delusion. ...
Have to agree. I don't see any evidence of any entrenchment for protection. Not even holes for individuals. The cannon and vehicles are too close together for my taste. Fifty meters between individual cannons was preferred in my training. Occasionally we spread out further. The vehicles would never be positioned this close to the cannon in our practice unless preparing to tow the cannon or deliver ammunition. Aside from holes or pits for individual protection we also had a set of smaller pits in the ground near the cannon for protecting the ready ammunition and redundant propellant charges.
Yes, that's right.

The D-30 howitzer has three-legged: two sliding and one fixed. When transferring the D-30 howitzer from a marching position to a combat position (installing the gun in a combat position), the fixed leg is installed along the main direction line.
The main direction is the direction in which all howitzers are most likely to fire (the direction from which the enemy is most likely to appear).
As can be seen, the barrels of the guns are directed along the line of the main direction (the barrels of all three howitzers are directed along the line of the fixed leg).
In the vertical plane, the barrels of all howitzers are raised to one level and this is (I am sure) level 30-00.
In this position, the barrels of all guns of the firing platoon (battery) should be located before the start of shooting, as well as will be installed immediately after the end of shooting.
We can say that these three howitzers were in the initial position and did not fire from them.
There are no spent cartridges next to howitzers. This is also a sign that the howitzers were not firing.

It is absolutely not clear why tractors (cars) are in this position. The first thing that comes to mind is that shells were brought on cars, but the body of the distant car burned out and it is clear that there are no shells in the body.
I have no clear hypotheses why cars are in this position.
The only plausible hypothesis is that the appearance of the enemy was unexpected for the crews and they drove the tractors to the guns as soon as they noticed the enemy approaching the firing positions of the platoon.
But it was too late.
===========
Most likely, this is a zone of steppes and the photo was taken either in the south in the steppes of Tavrida (Kherson, Zaporozhye) or in the east in the Donetsk region (Mariupol is also the Donetsk region).
Trees in forest plantations (trees around the perimeter of the field) are stunted, branches are thin and there are few of them. The top of the nearest tree is bent to the side at an angle of 90 degrees (this is a sign of constant wind).A sure sign that trees grow in the steppe zone, where there is little moisture, the wind blows constantly and in a certain direction.

In the north, that is, in the Kiev region, especially north of the city of Kiev (Chernobyl, Gostomel, Bucha, Vyshgorod), the trees are tall and branched, there are pine trees in abundance.

However , my student friend used to say this:
But our world is so diverse that there can be nothing in it that cannot be.

P.S.
It's nice to know that we are, if I may say so, colleagues.
My artillery specialization is barrel artillery of medium caliber 76-152 mm guns.
In addition to the 122 mm D-30, our battery had 76 mm ZiS-3 of the 1942 model, 152 mm D-1 of the 1943 model.
What systems have you had to deal with?

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Re: Towed arty

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Apr 2022 10:25

Yuri

My first experience was in the 1980s with the M101 105mm howitzer, that was slightly modified from the M2 howitzer of the 1940s. In those years I was also trained with the M114 155mm howitzer & M110 203mm howitzer.

In 1985 we discarded those cannon and used the M198 155mm howitzer exclusively for the next two decades. I also had some brief training with the M102 105mm howitzer and the M109 155mm howitzer. All were towed cannon, except M109 on a self propelled tracked chassis.

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Yuri
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Re: Towed arty

Post by Yuri » 10 Apr 2022 14:10

Combat operation of the D-30 howitzer battery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbQPohqIc3o

The Ukrainian Armed Forces. Battery of howitzers D-30 (six guns) gives a volley (simultaneous shot from six guns)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NO97-98oug

Destruction of a howitzer D-30 of the Ukrainian Armed Forces from a drone.

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/?text=% ... 3608304660

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