Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

Discussions on other historical eras.
Locked
LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#121

Post by LineDoggie » 04 Aug 2022, 00:45

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:38
raving gibberish for several paragraphs on nonsensical hysteria
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:38
I see that you have no arguments at all .
Terribly sorry for using rational thought processes to reply to you , I should have realized
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#122

Post by LineDoggie » 04 Aug 2022, 01:00

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 07:34

The western media are hiding the fact that 3 years after he became president, Zelenski is still selling weapons to the dictators of Myanmar ( I do not object to this )
Then why do you hysterically keep mentioning it?
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 07:34
but is at the same time doing blah blah about international law and democracy .
I dislike hypocrites .
And : give me ONE reason , ONE reason why I should give my savings to Ukraine .
ONE REASON .
VERIFIABLE source to Zelensky selling weapons to Myanmar while president and fighting the russian pigs

Not your hysteria, and I'm sure no one wants your savings

Verifiable proof he is responsible for the arms sales since the war in Ukraine began
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach


LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#123

Post by LineDoggie » 04 Aug 2022, 01:05

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 12:59


These forces were armed by the US and came from the US .
Guatemala actually , Retalhuleu province to be pedantic

Strike three on basic facts for you
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#124

Post by LineDoggie » 04 Aug 2022, 01:09

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 13:23

That's why the CIA organized Euromaidan :roll:
VERIFIABLE proof not hysteria

sounds like how russians whine about the CIA behind every tree
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15585
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#125

Post by ljadw » 04 Aug 2022, 06:22

LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 00:43
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:36

The forces that invaded Cuba were commanded by US, trained by US, armed by US, paid by US . Thus, de facto they were US forces
their commander was José Alfredo Pérez San Román not an American

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:36
And a year later, the US army would have invaded Cuba, but the capitulation of the Soviets prevented this .
Again an opinion, their were plans but they were not needed like the invasion of Japan was not needed.

ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:36
If in February Russophile forces from the Donbas, trained, paid,commanded armed by Russia had invaded Ukraine, would you say that there was no Russian invasion ?
so you are admitting the Polite soldiers and separatists are russians?
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:36
In 1962 the Pentagon had elaborated operation Northwoods ,a false flag operation, to convince the world that US had the right to invade Cuba .
a contingency plan like invading Canada aka War plan Crimson does not make it an actual operational mission.
<sigh> STILL Not a US invasion by US forces but you cant seem to comprehend such a simple thing.

Wave and rave all you want, you were wrong
And who was the commander of Roman ? The person who paid Roman and his men = the CIA .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15585
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#126

Post by ljadw » 04 Aug 2022, 06:34

LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 01:09
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 13:23

That's why the CIA organized Euromaidan :roll:
VERIFIABLE proof not hysteria

sounds like how russians whine about the CIA behind every tree
''Washington helped trigger the Ukrainian War ''
Source : The establishment CATO Institute March 25 2022
The CIA is behind millions of trees in Italy, Congo, Chili,Central America,Libya, Syria, Afghanistan. Iraq,etc,etc ...

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15585
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#127

Post by ljadw » 04 Aug 2022, 06:37

LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 00:45
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:38
raving gibberish for several paragraphs on nonsensical hysteria
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 19:38
I see that you have no arguments at all .
Terribly sorry for using rational thought processes to reply to you , I should have realized
Rational thought from the man who is talking about russian pigs . :roll:

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15585
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#128

Post by ljadw » 04 Aug 2022, 06:48

Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
Hi Guys,

Most analysis lacks historical depth. Moscow has been trying to extinguish any distinct Ukrainian identity for hundreds of years.

Putin is simply returning to Moscow's traditional campaign of political, cultural and linguistic "genocide" of centuries past which was designed to assimilate Russia's immediate Slavic neighbours, and some others, into Russia itself.

Putin complains about the USSR's recognition of Ukraine as a distinct entity from Russia. However, what actually happened between 1919 and 1991?

I recommend taking a look at the 1926 Soviet Census and compare it with the situation of 1991. It will show just how far Russianization advanced during this period. For example, largely through implantation rather than natural growth, the number of Russian-speakers in Ukraine was quadrupled (2.6 million to over 11 milion). Most are the result of immigration in my lifetime! At the same time, in several majority Ukrainian-speaking areas inside southern Russia in 1926, Ukrainian language and identity was almost completely extinguished in those 65 years.

For Putin, the NATO threat is not that it will attack Russia or has any designs on its territory, but that inside NATO Ukraine would be free to consolidate its state in exactly the same way as Russia itself did in the past.

This would put Ukraine as far beyond assimilation by Moscow as are Poland, Slovakia or Bulgaria already. Russia's version of its "manifest destiny", a Moscow-ruled Pan-Slavism, would then be definitively ended and Russia pinned within its existing borders. That, I would suggest, is what this is all about.

The British, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese are reconciled to the end of empire and colonialism. Russia is not.

Cheers,

Sid.
The Cato Institute would disagree with you .

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#129

Post by Peter89 » 04 Aug 2022, 08:34

Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
Hi Guys,

Most analysis lacks historical depth. Moscow has been trying to extinguish any distinct Ukrainian identity for hundreds of years.

Putin is simply returning to Moscow's traditional campaign of political, cultural and linguistic "genocide" of centuries past which was designed to assimilate Russia's immediate Slavic neighbours, and some others, into Russia itself.

Putin complains about the USSR's recognition of Ukraine as a distinct entity from Russia. However, what actually happened between 1919 and 1991?

I recommend taking a look at the 1926 Soviet Census and compare it with the situation of 1991. It will show just how far Russianization advanced during this period. For example, largely through implantation rather than natural growth, the number of Russian-speakers in Ukraine was quadrupled (2.6 million to over 11 milion). Most are the result of immigration in my lifetime! At the same time, in several majority Ukrainian-speaking areas inside southern Russia in 1926, Ukrainian language and identity was almost completely extinguished in those 65 years.
Such historical analysis could be said about practically any European country, a number of which now condemns Russia. The difference is the attitude: in Western and Northern Europe, questions of language and national identity are addressed in a peaceful manner, and it's relevance is much more limited because of the tens of millions of extra-European immigrants, who differ much more in both language, culture, religion, etc. In CEE Europe national oppression and deprivation of ethnic rights are commonplace, and some countries like Czechia still cling to discriminative constitutional structures. In Eastern Europe and Russia, the problem was of course that nobody really had an idea what's going to happen with Russia, how its future will unfold and what influence can it exercise on the three fragmentation zones (Central Asia, Caucasus, Eastern Europe). After installing outright puppets in Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine, for some reason I can not explain, Russia felt that military power was needed to attack Ukraine. Which is a complete mistake from my point of view, because whatever remains of Ukraine, will be out of Russia's influence practically forever, while average Ukrainians didn't care too much about Russia's influence over the country's top politicians for decades.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
For Putin, the NATO threat is not that it will attack Russia or has any designs on its territory, but that inside NATO Ukraine would be free to consolidate its state in exactly the same way as Russia itself did in the past.

This would put Ukraine as far beyond assimilation by Moscow as are Poland, Slovakia or Bulgaria already. Russia's version of its "manifest destiny", a Moscow-ruled Pan-Slavism, would then be definitively ended and Russia pinned within its existing borders. That, I would suggest, is what this is all about.
Ukraine was and is nowhere near on the verge of joining the NATO and less so the EU.

Ukraine could not join the NATO because: 1. it would be a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum, 2. the NATO would gain nothing from it. Ukrainian contribution to the UN approved international missions is lackluster, its armed forces had a terrible reputation of Subsaharan Africa-like corruption, instant desertion, etc. up until this war. If a country wants to join the EU, it has to undergo a series of negotiations which could practically last forever, and Ukraine is clearly non-eligible for admission on many aspects. Plus the EU has problems with its Eastern and Southern countries already, so why would the centrum powers want 40 million impoverished people living in a corrupt state join the Council with veto powers? It would be suicidal as a much smaller, much wealthier and much more integrated Hungary can not be regulated constitutionally and a much smaller and much less powerful Greece can not be regulated in matters of corruption? Not to mention the UK, which might fall apart in the near future and Northern Ireland (either joined with Ireland or on its own) or Scotland might apply for EU membership, presenting serious issues. Currently the EU's enlargement policy is aimed at the West Balkans.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
The British, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese are reconciled to the end of empire and colonialism. Russia is not.
Well, then these countries could return from their overseas territories and declare that they are not going to do any military actions in the third world unless it's UN authorized.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

LineDoggie
Member
Posts: 1275
Joined: 03 Oct 2008, 21:06

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#130

Post by LineDoggie » 04 Aug 2022, 11:18

Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 08:34

Ukraine could not join the NATO because: 1. it would be a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum, 2. the NATO would gain nothing from it. Ukrainian contribution to the UN approved international missions is lackluster, its armed forces had a terrible reputation of Subsaharan Africa-like corruption, instant desertion, etc. up until this war.
The same memorandum that russia guaranteed Ukrainian Sovereignty if Ukraine gave its nukes up?

The NATO allows turkey a considerable bigger drag on NATO as Turkey considers its biggest enemy fellow NATO member Greece.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#131

Post by Peter89 » 04 Aug 2022, 12:15

LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 11:18
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 08:34

Ukraine could not join the NATO because: 1. it would be a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum, 2. the NATO would gain nothing from it. Ukrainian contribution to the UN approved international missions is lackluster, its armed forces had a terrible reputation of Subsaharan Africa-like corruption, instant desertion, etc. up until this war.
The same memorandum that russia guaranteed Ukrainian Sovereignty if Ukraine gave its nukes up?

The NATO allows turkey a considerable bigger drag on NATO as Turkey considers its biggest enemy fellow NATO member Greece.
Yes, the same memorandum in which the US and the UK reaffirmed their commitment to refrain from using economic coercion designed to subordinate Ukraine to their own interests or securing advantages of any kind.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4504
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#132

Post by Aida1 » 04 Aug 2022, 20:54

Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 12:15
LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 11:18
Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 08:34

Ukraine could not join the NATO because: 1. it would be a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum, 2. the NATO would gain nothing from it. Ukrainian contribution to the UN approved international missions is lackluster, its armed forces had a terrible reputation of Subsaharan Africa-like corruption, instant desertion, etc. up until this war.
The same memorandum that russia guaranteed Ukrainian Sovereignty if Ukraine gave its nukes up?

The NATO allows turkey a considerable bigger drag on NATO as Turkey considers its biggest enemy fellow NATO member Greece.
Yes, the same memorandum in which the US and the UK reaffirmed their commitment to refrain from using economic coercion designed to subordinate Ukraine to their own interests or securing advantages of any kind.
Obvious nonsense. Ukraine would never be coerced to anything by the US and UK. It was only ever threatened by Russia. It wants to join NATO and EU and should be accepted. The Ukraine is not a vassal state of Russia.
Last edited by Aida1 on 04 Aug 2022, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4504
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#133

Post by Aida1 » 04 Aug 2022, 20:59

Peter89 wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 08:34
Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
Hi Guys,

Most analysis lacks historical depth. Moscow has been trying to extinguish any distinct Ukrainian identity for hundreds of years.

Putin is simply returning to Moscow's traditional campaign of political, cultural and linguistic "genocide" of centuries past which was designed to assimilate Russia's immediate Slavic neighbours, and some others, into Russia itself.

Putin complains about the USSR's recognition of Ukraine as a distinct entity from Russia. However, what actually happened between 1919 and 1991?

I recommend taking a look at the 1926 Soviet Census and compare it with the situation of 1991. It will show just how far Russianization advanced during this period. For example, largely through implantation rather than natural growth, the number of Russian-speakers in Ukraine was quadrupled (2.6 million to over 11 milion). Most are the result of immigration in my lifetime! At the same time, in several majority Ukrainian-speaking areas inside southern Russia in 1926, Ukrainian language and identity was almost completely extinguished in those 65 years.
Such historical analysis could be said about practically any European country, a number of which now condemns Russia. The difference is the attitude: in Western and Northern Europe, questions of language and national identity are addressed in a peaceful manner, and it's relevance is much more limited because of the tens of millions of extra-European immigrants, who differ much more in both language, culture, religion, etc. In CEE Europe national oppression and deprivation of ethnic rights are commonplace, and some countries like Czechia still cling to discriminative constitutional structures. In Eastern Europe and Russia, the problem was of course that nobody really had an idea what's going to happen with Russia, how its future will unfold and what influence can it exercise on the three fragmentation zones (Central Asia, Caucasus, Eastern Europe). After installing outright puppets in Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and Ukraine, for some reason I can not explain, Russia felt that military power was needed to attack Ukraine. Which is a complete mistake from my point of view, because whatever remains of Ukraine, will be out of Russia's influence practically forever, while average Ukrainians didn't care too much about Russia's influence over the country's top politicians for decades.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
For Putin, the NATO threat is not that it will attack Russia or has any designs on its territory, but that inside NATO Ukraine would be free to consolidate its state in exactly the same way as Russia itself did in the past.

This would put Ukraine as far beyond assimilation by Moscow as are Poland, Slovakia or Bulgaria already. Russia's version of its "manifest destiny", a Moscow-ruled Pan-Slavism, would then be definitively ended and Russia pinned within its existing borders. That, I would suggest, is what this is all about.
Ukraine was and is nowhere near on the verge of joining the NATO and less so the EU.

Ukraine could not join the NATO because: 1. it would be a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum, 2. the NATO would gain nothing from it. Ukrainian contribution to the UN approved international missions is lackluster, its armed forces had a terrible reputation of Subsaharan Africa-like corruption, instant desertion, etc. up until this war. If a country wants to join the EU, it has to undergo a series of negotiations which could practically last forever, and Ukraine is clearly non-eligible for admission on many aspects. Plus the EU has problems with its Eastern and Southern countries already, so why would the centrum powers want 40 million impoverished people living in a corrupt state join the Council with veto powers? It would be suicidal as a much smaller, much wealthier and much more integrated Hungary can not be regulated constitutionally and a much smaller and much less powerful Greece can not be regulated in matters of corruption? Not to mention the UK, which might fall apart in the near future and Northern Ireland (either joined with Ireland or on its own) or Scotland might apply for EU membership, presenting serious issues. Currently the EU's enlargement policy is aimed at the West Balkans.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
The British, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese are reconciled to the end of empire and colonialism. Russia is not.
Well, then these countries could return from their overseas territories and declare that they are not going to do any military actions in the third world unless it's UN authorized.
This is the usual pro Russian tunnel view on the world.
There is no prohibition on Ukraine joining NATO. It is only the weakness of European appeasers of Putin that has kept Ukraine out of NATO.
The Ukraine would be a very good NATO member. Very motivated.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4504
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#134

Post by Aida1 » 04 Aug 2022, 21:02

ljadw wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 06:34
LineDoggie wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 01:09
ljadw wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 13:23

That's why the CIA organized Euromaidan :roll:
VERIFIABLE proof not hysteria

sounds like how russians whine about the CIA behind every tree
''Washington helped trigger the Ukrainian War ''
Source : The establishment CATO Institute March 25 2022
The CIA is behind millions of trees in Italy, Congo, Chili,Central America,Libya, Syria, Afghanistan. Iraq,etc,etc ...
You are on of these strange individuals who sees the CIA everywhere.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4504
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Henry Kissinger on Russia and Ukraine

#135

Post by Aida1 » 04 Aug 2022, 21:06

Sid Guttridge wrote:
03 Aug 2022, 17:37
Hi Guys,

Most analysis lacks historical depth. Moscow has been trying to extinguish any distinct Ukrainian identity for hundreds of years.

Putin is simply returning to Moscow's traditional campaign of political, cultural and linguistic "genocide" of centuries past which was designed to assimilate Russia's immediate Slavic neighbours, and some others, into Russia itself.

Putin complains about the USSR's recognition of Ukraine as a distinct entity from Russia. However, what actually happened between 1919 and 1991?

I recommend taking a look at the 1926 Soviet Census and compare it with the situation of 1991. It will show just how far Russianization advanced during this period. For example, largely through implantation rather than natural growth, the number of Russian-speakers in Ukraine was quadrupled (2.6 million to over 11 milion). Most are the result of immigration in my lifetime! At the same time, in several majority Ukrainian-speaking areas inside southern Russia in 1926, Ukrainian language and identity was almost completely extinguished in those 65 years.

For Putin, the NATO threat is not that it will attack Russia or has any designs on its territory, but that inside NATO Ukraine would be free to consolidate its state in exactly the same way as Russia itself did in the past.

This would put Ukraine as far beyond assimilation by Moscow as are Poland, Slovakia or Bulgaria already. Russia's version of its "manifest destiny", a Moscow-ruled Pan-Slavism, would then be definitively ended and Russia pinned within its existing borders. That, I would suggest, is what this is all about.

The British, French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese are reconciled to the end of empire and colonialism. Russia is not.

Cheers,

Sid.
This is very true.

Locked

Return to “Other eras”