Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

[CogCalgary]

Possibly started by the disaster that befell the Armenians?

The persecution of the Armenians happened already a generation before WW1 .
What you call '' a disaster '' was only the logical consequence of the Hamidian massacres ( between 80000 and 300000 victims ) .

Thanks,I was actually unaware of the earlier massacres.

[CogCalgary]

Although the Ottomans had nothing to do with it, it was the new kid on the block - the Young Turks, i.e., Turkish socialists.
It happened in apocalyptic times when Turkey was on the brink of destruction, seemingly threatened by the Armenians too.
Turkey regained stability very quickly.
Btw the Jews enthusiastically supported the Young Turks.

So the earlier actions of Sultan Hamid were of no consequence?

[wm]

During the so-called Ottoman contraction, lots of stupid things happened. It wasn't like only non-Muslims were dying.

According to historian Justin McCarthy, between the years 1821–1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Muslims were driven from their lands and another five and a half million died, some of them killed in wars, others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease.

According to Matthew Gibney, the total Muslim refugees during these centuries are estimated to be several millions. Roger Owen estimates that during the last decade of the Ottoman Empire (1912–1922) when the Balkan wars, World War I and war of Independence took place, close to 2 million Muslims, civilian and military, died in the area of modern Turkey.

Historian Uğur Ümit Üngör noted that during the Russian invasion of Ottoman lands, "many atrocities were carried out against the local Turks and Kurds by the Russian army and Armenian volunteers."
General Liakhov gave the order to kill any Turk on sight and destroy any mosque. According to Boris Shakhovskoi the Armenian nationalists wanted to exterminate the Muslims in the occupied regions.
J. Rummel estimates that 128,000-600,000 Muslim Turks and Kurds were killed by Russian troops and Armenian irregulars; at least 128,000 of them between 1914–1915 according to Turkish statistician Ahmet Emin Yalman.

[wm]

There is no such thing as ''The Jews ''.
Did ''the Jews '' in the Pale of Settlements even knew of the existence of the Young Turks ?

Of course, they knew, the Pale of Settlements was clearly culturally and civilizationally superior to the entire Ottoman Empire.

Actually, the sole intention of Theodor Herzl and his movement was to gain Palestine in exchange for Jewish support for the Ottoman Empire and specifically by fixing its finances.
Additionally, Mr. Herzl offered a major propaganda campaign in support of Sultan Abdul Hamid II, the one responsible for the Hamidian massacres.

[wm]

The destabilization of the region started when the Ottoman Empire collapsed, not because of the reestablishment of Israel .There is no causal connection between both.

And where is evidence for that? Where actually did the destabilization happen? Outside the usual anti-colonial movements?
The region would do well without Israel and the wars caused by it, including the invasion of Egypt in defense of colonial rights over the Suez Canal.

The Ottoman Empire ( a multinational state and thus a colonialist state ) was already collapsing before WW 1.
And Israel did not exist before WW 1 .

The Ottoman Empire wasn't a colonial state for the simple reason there were no colonies there. It was a single state similar to modern Russia.
The Ottoman Empire was collapsing for decades, but it resulted in stable national states like Greece, and Bulgaria.
And till ww1, the Arab part wasn't even affected by the contraction of the Empire.

[ljadw]

The Ottoman Empire was, as was Czarist Russia, a multinational state, thus doomed to disappear ,a state where the numerically strong minorities were persecuted by the ruling majorities.
Following the official census of 1906 only 75 % of the population of the Ottoman Empire were Muslims and the other 25 % were treated as second ( or third ) rang citizens . A colonial situation .
In 1897 only 44 % of the 125 million inhabitants of the Russian Empire had Russian as native language,the other 56 % were treated as second ( or third ) rang citizens . A colonial situation .
The Muslims ( 11 % ) and those labeled as Jewish were persecuted .
The situation did not change when the bolchevists took power .

[ljadw]

There is no such thing as ''The Jews ''.
Did ''the Jews '' in the Pale of Settlements even knew of the existence of the Young Turks ?

Of course, they knew, the Pale of Settlements was clearly culturally and civilizationally superior to the entire Ottoman Empire.

That is not a proof that the inhabitants of the Pale knew of the existence of the Young Turks .They were very poor ( 2 million left the Pale in 30 years ) and most could not even afford to buy a newspaper and illiteracy was very big .

[wm]

That myth or rather a conspiracy theory of the very poor Russian Jews...
Actually, the Jews were probably the wealthiest nationality and the best educated.

Lenin was fond of saying that without a Jew, no (communist) endeavor would be successful (“Not a single Jew? No, nothing will come of it!”). Just because the Jews were educated and the Russians weren't.

The Russian sugar-beet industry was controlled by Jewish dynasties. And probably the entire grain trade. And wood trade in some parts of the Empire, including Lithuania.

A listing of the Russian Empire’s “business elite” in 1914 reveals roughly 15% Jews, also well above their 5% of the population.
The ranks of Russian bankers were replete with Jews such as Kamenka, Rafalovich, Rubinstein and Rothstein.

The last, German-born Adolf Rothstein, the “Great Jewish financier,” played an important role not only as an executive of the St. Petersburg International Commercial Bank, but also as foreign representative of the Tsarist Ministry of Finance. Plus, he was father-in-law to one of the French Rothschilds.
Even the Tsar’s physician, Dr. Samuel Hirsch, was Jewish.

At the tip of this elite stood the widely esteemed figure of Baron Horace (Goratsii) Günzburg, a wealthy philanthropist who occupied a position not unlike that of Jacob Schiff in America. The elite also included the previously mentioned Wissotzkys, kings of the Russian tea trade, the Brodskys with their empire of sugar refining and brewing, not to mention Trotsky’s father and uncles.
Wall Street and the Russian Revolution by Richard Spence

When the Pale (partially) reverted to Poland in 1918, the (very poor) Jews owned 42% of the Polish industry, 52% of trade, and employed 40 percent of the workforce.
So there.

[ljadw]

Why do you use a well-known anti-Semite as source ?

[wm]

It's better to attack the message, not the messenger. The book is properly referenced with appropriate citations and bibliography.
In this case, it's from the untranslated (so it shows how deep Spence dug for information) "Деловая элита России 1914 г." written by Russian historian (and professor of history) Alexander Bokhanov.

The word "anti-Semite" today has no meaning anyway. It's mostly nothing but mud-slinging. Almost everyone has been declared an anti-Semite, including Solzhenitsyn, Trump, and Biden.

[ljadw]

Spence is a charlatan and a copycat of Antony Sutton (I never understood why the Hoover Institute accepted Sutton ).
Spence wrote several books,among them ''Alister Crowley,British Intelligence and the Occult ''. The title of this book disqualifies Spence as a serious historian .
On P 284 of this book,Spence wrote : "Hoover took a dim view of occult groups,though he was a Freemason ."
This proves that professor Spence does not know that American Freemasonry, opposite to European Freemasonry,is not an occult group and has no political power .
If US Freemasonry is an occult group (as claims Spence ) how do we know the names of the 14 US presidents who were Freemasons ?
And, about "Wall Street and the Russian Revolution "',he mentions the Rothschilds, which disqualifies him again .
He and Bokhanov are talking about Russian Jews, German Jews,etc ,while the truth is that there were no Russian, German, American Jews, but only Jewish Russians, Germans, etc..
There is NO proof at all that Jewish American bankers supported the Communist revolution of 1917 .
They were bankers,and bankers do not give money to people who want to hang them, they were also Americans and US supported the Kerenski regime .There is also no proof that they considered themselves still as Jewish/as Jews .

Talking about the Russian Jews is the same as saying that the story of the Protocols of the Elders of Sion was something real .

[ljadw]

That myth or rather a conspiracy theory of the very poor Russian Jews...
Actually, the Jews were probably the wealthiest nationality and the best educated.

Lenin was fond of saying that without a Jew, no (communist) endeavor would be successful (“Not a single Jew? No, nothing will come of it!”). Just because the Jews were educated and the Russians weren't.

The Russian sugar-beet industry was controlled by Jewish dynasties. And probably the entire grain trade. And wood trade in some parts of the Empire, including Lithuania.

A listing of the Russian Empire’s “business elite” in 1914 reveals roughly 15% Jews, also well above their 5% of the population.
The ranks of Russian bankers were replete with Jews such as Kamenka, Rafalovich, Rubinstein and Rothstein.

The last, German-born Adolf Rothstein, the “Great Jewish financier,” played an important role not only as an executive of the St. Petersburg International Commercial Bank, but also as foreign representative of the Tsarist Ministry of Finance. Plus, he was father-in-law to one of the French Rothschilds.
Even the Tsar’s physician, Dr. Samuel Hirsch, was Jewish.

At the tip of this elite stood the widely esteemed figure of Baron Horace (Goratsii) Günzburg, a wealthy philanthropist who occupied a position not unlike that of Jacob Schiff in America. The elite also included the previously mentioned Wissotzkys, kings of the Russian tea trade, the Brodskys with their empire of sugar refining and brewing, not to mention Trotsky’s father and uncles.
Wall Street and the Russian Revolution by Richard Spence

When the Pale (partially) reverted to Poland in 1918, the (very poor) Jews owned 42% of the Polish industry, 52% of trade, and employed 40 percent of the workforce.
So there.

3 million of your ''rich Jews "' emigrated, mostly to the US,for 2 reasons :
the pogroms
poverty
And if the ''Russian Jews "" were that powerful,why did they not stop the pogroms ?

[wm]

That's an argument from ignorance.
In the same period, 3.5 million Poles emigrated too.
Because of pogroms? No, because life was much better in the US.
And

two million Jews emigrated from Eastern Europe in the span of 35 years (1881-1914).

[ljadw]

About the conspiracy theory from Spence that Jewish Wall Street bankers helped the Russian communists because a lot of these were Jewish and because they hated the Czarist government for its pogroms,look at the figures : before WW 1 US investments in Czarist Russia amounted to 117,7 million rubles,and these investments came mainly from International Harvester and from the Singer Company ,which was founded by Isaac Singer .Does this prove that Isaac Singer was a supporter of the anti-Jewish policies of the Czars ??
Because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Carter stopped the export of grains to the USSR.His successor,Reagan,resumed these exports . Does this prove that Reagan was a crypto communist ?
Most of Italy's oil imports before WW 2 came from the USSR . Does this prove that Stalin was a fascist and Mussolini a communist ?
Since 1968 most of the gas imports of Austria,Germany, etc are coming from the USSR /Russia . Does this prove that the PMs of Germany and Austria were/ are communist agents ?
And in 1891 the French Rothschilds agreed to a loan of $ 300 million to Czarist Russia that was executing pogroms every day .

[ljadw]

That's an argument from ignorance.
In the same period, 3.5 million Poles emigrated too.
Because of pogroms? No, because life was much better in the US.
And

two million Jews emigrated from Eastern Europe in the span of 35 years (1881-1914).

That is an argument of ignorance : there were anti-Jewish pogroms, there were no anti-Polish pogroms.
''Jews '' left because of poverty and pogroms, Poles left because of poverty .
And, how many of these 3,5 million Poles emigrated to the US ?
Last point : the existence of the pogroms and the mass Jewish emigration debunk the claims that the ''Jews '' were very powerful in Russia .