Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

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ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 08:27

Princess Perfume wrote:
27 Aug 2022 06:23
At this point in the discussion the point is always raised that hostility to Israel, and even the assertion that Israel has no right to exist – in other words anti-Zionism – is not the same thing as anti-Semitism, which is hostility to Jews as Jews, not to Israel as a state. Are there not Jews who hold anti-Zionist views (it is said), and does this not prove that anti-Zionism is not the same as anti-Semitism?

As a proposition in logic, that is undeniable. There are many Jews who reject Zionism, although they are a small proportion of all the Jews in the world. They include both leftist secular intellectuals such as Shlomo Sand and Noam Chomsky, and some ultra-Orthodox sects such as Satmar, which reject secular Zionism as blasphemous. Therefore it cannot be asserted that to be an anti-Zionist is also, automatically, to be an anti-Semite.

But in practice this argument doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny. For the great majority of the world’s Jews, now and throughout history, identification with the Land of Israel as the historic homeland of the Jewish people, and the belief that the Jews should and will return there, has been and is still central to their identity as Jews, and this is true of both religious and secular Jews. To deny the legitimacy of that identity and that aspiration is in effect an attack on the Jewish people, and is experienced as such by the great majority of Jews.

In practice, most of those who most vocally espouse anti-Zionism, whether from a Muslim background or from a secular leftist background, also explicitly or implicitly espouse one or more of the traditional tropes of anti-Semitic rhetoric. The most powerful of these are that the Jews are uniquely powerful and influential, that they work together as a secret international cabal, that they control the world financial system and the world media, and that they use their power to manipulate governments for their own benefit.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 09:00

"The right to exist" for non-existing countries doesn't exist and never existed.
It's just a codeword for the (based on mysticism) right of conquest.

"The right to exist" for existing, legal countries really exists, although depends on willingness of the international community to defend borders of the victim.
In other words, the existing status quo is preferable to any changes.

So, for example, Ukraine is supported against the aggressor, but countries that ceased to exist (South Vietnam, Tibet) aren't, and they will never come back.

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Princess Perfume » 27 Aug 2022 09:58

WM ignores everything i said. That points out that Anti-zionism BS is just that.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 10:32

wm wrote:
27 Aug 2022 09:00
"The right to exist" for non-existing countries doesn't exist and never existed.
It's just a codeword for the (based on mysticism) right of conquest.

"The right to exist" for existing, legal countries really exists, although depends on willingness of the international community to defend borders of the victim.
In other words, the existing status quo is preferable to any changes.

So, for example, Ukraine is supported against the aggressor, but countries that ceased to exist (South Vietnam, Tibet) aren't, and they will never come back.
There are no legal countries as legal countries implies illegal countries .
And, there is no such thing as the international community .The international community is a collection of countries that have attacked/that attacked other countries .
That the existing status quo is preferable to any changes is one of the most stupid things I ever heard .If it was so ,we would still be Neanderthalers.
That Ukraine is supported against the agressor is hypocrisy . The overwhelming majority of the world does not support Ukraine because they do not care about Ukraine .
US are not the overwhelming majority of the world .

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 10:36

Princess Perfume wrote:
27 Aug 2022 09:58
WM ignores everything i said. That points out that Anti-zionism BS is just that.
"The right to exist" is the only concrete term - with meaning there.
"anti-Zionism" and "anti-Semitism" are vague terms based on opinions - vague in the how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin sense.

But in media, on the Internet, they are invariable terms of verbal abuse, abusive ad hominem.
Especially in the US, they are used against the other side of the political spectrum.
The way to say: "you're are a pos," or "have you stopped beating your wife?".

As I've said, "the right to exist" is a codeword for a mystical right of conquest. That so many Jews engaged in such mysticism doesn't legitimize it - it's still a conquest.

And it wasn't even "the great majority of the world's Jews" - the great majority of the world's Jews went native, assimilated.

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 10:42

The use of the terms for political gain was noticed a long time ago.
Goldman belittles.jpg
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 15:08

wm wrote:
27 Aug 2022 10:36
Princess Perfume wrote:
27 Aug 2022 09:58
WM ignores everything i said. That points out that Anti-zionism BS is just that.


And it wasn't even "the great majority of the world's Jews" - the great majority of the world's Jews went native, assimilated.
Auschwitz trains were full of native,assimilated Jews .

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 15:48

And?
The assimilated Jews had the greatest chance of survival because they were able to mingle with the population, work, and support themselves for three long years.
And they had "native" friends ready to die for them.
The others, religious Jews (and the majority of them) - living in self-imposed apartheid, didn't have any chance.

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 16:04

A lot of people said that Kaplan was an atheist rabbi .Thus native, assimilated .And a lot of people ,people who recognized reality ,would disagree with the claim of Goldman ,before WW 2,that anti-Semitism was no big evil in the US . Observe that Goldman was that careful not to say that it was not a big danger in the US .The Jews of the St Louis who were not admitted in the US by FDR,and had to return to Europe where they went to Auschwitz,would also disagree with Goldman .
That there was no Auschwitz in the US does not mean that Auschwitz was/is impossible in the US .

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 17:38

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 16:04
A lot of people said that Kaplan was an atheist rabbi .
Do you have evidence for that? BTW, as usual, it's a rhetorical question.

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 16:04
And a lot of people ,people who recognized reality ,would disagree with the claim of Goldman ,before WW 2,that anti-Semitism was no big evil in the US .
Do you have evidence for that?

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 16:04
The Jews of the St Louis who were not admitted in the US by FDR,and had to return to Europe where they went to Auschwitz,would also disagree with Goldman .
That's one of the worst anti-American conspiracy theories, full of only lies and each of those lies is the direct opposite of the truth.
It's never happened bst.

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 16:04
That there was no Auschwitz in the US does not mean that Auschwitz was/is impossible in the US .
Another anti-American bst.

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 19:40

wm wrote:
27 Aug 2022 15:48
And?
The assimilated Jews had the greatest chance of survival because they were able to mingle with the population, work, and support themselves for three long years.
And they had "native" friends ready to die for them.
The others, religious Jews (and the majority of them) - living in self-imposed apartheid, didn't have any chance.
Wrong : assimilated Jews (the majority of the Jews ) had not more chance to survive than the others, because it were the Germans who decided who was a Jew,and their motto was :once a Jew,always a Jew .
If the Kissinger family had not emigrated in 1938, their fate was Auschwitz ,and they were assimilated .
Rathenau and Ballin were assimilated and nationalist Jewish Germans who died before the Holocaust . If they were still living in 1939, they would go to Auschwitz .Assimilated or not, nationalists or not .
Most Jewish Germans were assimilated, they considered themselves as Germans, not as Jews , but it did not help them when the Holocaust started .There was no order from Hitler not to kill assimilated Jews .
Last edited by ljadw on 27 Aug 2022 19:47, edited 1 time in total.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 19:44

About Kaplan :the internet is swarming with examples of people claiming that he was an atheist .(Most Jewish Americans are atheists )
Religious atheism :Atheism in Judaism :Mordecai Kaplan :Jewish Atheist
And
Reconstructionism :Kaplan asserted that Judaism was a culture rather than a religion .
And :
Judaism without God ?

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by CogCalgary » 27 Aug 2022 19:45

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 19:40
wm wrote:
27 Aug 2022 15:48
And?
The assimilated Jews had the greatest chance of survival because they were able to mingle with the population, work, and support themselves for three long years.
And they had "native" friends ready to die for them.
The others, religious Jews (and the majority of them) - living in self-imposed apartheid, didn't have any chance.
Wrong : assimilated Jews (the majority of the Jews ) had not more chance to survive than the others, because it were the Germans who decided who was a Jew,and their motto was :once a Jew,always a Jew .
If the Kissinger family had not emigrated in 1938, their fate was Auschwitz ,and they were assimilated .
Rathenau and Ballin were assimilated and nationalist Jewish Germans who died before the Holocaust . If they were still living in 1939, they would go to Auschwitz .Assimilated or not, nationalists or not .
IIRC,Hitler still talked about "noble"Jews.

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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 27 Aug 2022 19:58

About the St Louis :in 2012 US State Department apologized to the survivors and in 2017 The Canadian PM Trudeau did the same .

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 27 Aug 2022 20:59

ljadw wrote:
27 Aug 2022 19:58
About the St Louis :in 2012 US State Department apologized to the survivors and in 2017 The Canadian PM Trudeau did the same .
Still it's one of the most insane anti-American conspiracy theories.
Trudeau is a sociopath who would say anything to stay in power.
1939-06-23 The Archive of the Jewish Telegraphic Agency
-----
St. Louis Refugees Express Gratitude for Havens and J.D.C. Aid

James N. Rosenberg, chairman of the national council of the Joint Distribution Committee, today made public the following radiogram from the former passengers of the German liner St. Louis, all of whom have now found havens:

"Please accept for American Joint Distribution Committee and for Governments of Belgium, Holland, France and England the deepest and eternal thanks of men, women and children united by common fate aboard St. Louis.
Committee of Passengers.”
If they were delighted, why isn't Trudeau delighted?
Trudeau, although Canada wasn't involved, basically apologized for the fiction from the movie "Voyage of the Damned."
That must have been the first in idiocy (but a politically good move).

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