Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Discussions on other historical eras.
ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2022 09:21

wm wrote:
08 Sep 2022 20:47
ljadw wrote:
07 Sep 2022 06:38
Slezkine is an American anti-Semite who promotes the theory of Jewish Capitalism :''the Jews are Mercurian people ''. Julius Streicher said the same .
Not true. More poison-the-well nonsense.

The Jews were Mercurian people. It's a hard fact.
Sources of income of the Polish Jews in the Second Polish Republic in 1931 (in parentheses, the Poles).
agriculture - 4 percent (67)
industry including mining - 42 (16)
trade and insurance - 39 (3)
mass communication and transport - 4 (4)
other - 13 (10)

Industry+mining shouldn't be understood that the Jews were workers or miners. The number of Jewish workers was just a few percent.
" The Jews '' do not exist .And the figures are more than probably wrong and even false .

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2022 09:53

An example of a US blunder in the ME : Syria
The Syrian population had to choose between a leftist,secular dictatorship and an Islamist dictatorship from groups as ISIS and the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood .
The Syrians chose the Assad Regime (Assad as an Alamite married to a Sunni) .We should accept this decision,as it is not our business .
The fate of the Syrians is not our concern .
Which of both parties are the best for us ?
ISIS ,AQ, responsible for countless western deaths or Assad whose father fought with us against Saddam ?
From the liberal and interventionist Wilson Center :
In July 2011 Abu Bakr sent operatives to Syria.
In January 2012, Al Jawlari, one of these operatives,announced the formation of the Nusra Front ( an other terrorist organization )
The Syrian National Council was dominated by the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood ( also a terrorist organization )
In December 2012 US recognized the Syrian National Coalition (a collection of anti-Western terrorists ) as the legitimate government of Syria .

The CIA spent millions of dollars to make Morsi (of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood ) president of Egypt .
Why did the US make all these blunders ?
The answer is simple : because the ruling US liberals are convinced that everyone who fights again a dictator is a good guy who wants transform his country in a new US.
The US ambassador in Iran told Carter that Khomeini was a new Gandhi and of course Carter believed this ,he believed everything that was consistent with his own bias.
The Bush administration thought that all the inmates of the prisons of Saddam were good guys .These good guys joined ISIS .
As long as the ruling liberals in the US (and their European servants ) continue to believe that the whole world is wanting/waiting for only one thing : to have democracy made in US , these blunders will continue and thousands of people in the US and Europe will be the victims .
East is east and West is west and never shall they meet each other .

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7467
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 09 Sep 2022 14:27

ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2022 09:53
The Syrians chose the Assad Regime (Assad as an Alamite married to a Sunni) .We should accept this decision,as it is not our business .
Did the Syrians tell you they all loved Assad?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2022 16:36

wm wrote:
09 Sep 2022 14:27
ljadw wrote:
09 Sep 2022 09:53
The Syrians chose the Assad Regime (Assad as an Alamite married to a Sunni) .We should accept this decision,as it is not our business .
Did the Syrians tell you they all loved Assad?
The Syrians fought for Assad and supported him .

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7467
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 09 Sep 2022 18:44

So why did he have to falsify the latest elections?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 09 Sep 2022 18:59

wm wrote:
09 Sep 2022 18:44
So why did he have to falsify the latest elections?
Do you have proofs that these elections were falsified ?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7467
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 09 Sep 2022 20:16

In a country with a one-party regime ruled by the same family for 50 years, no freedom of the press, no freedom of expression, no independent civil society, but instead with an omnipresent secret service, systematic torture, and state institutions that have been co-opted by the regime with a view to cementing its grip on power, the electoral process – from the approval of candidates to the counting of votes – is controlled by the powers that be. There is no independent body in Syria that could guarantee free elections.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 10 Sep 2022 06:34

wm wrote:
09 Sep 2022 20:16
In a country with a one-party regime ruled by the same family for 50 years, no freedom of the press, no freedom of expression, no independent civil society, but instead with an omnipresent secret service, systematic torture, and state institutions that have been co-opted by the regime with a view to cementing its grip on power, the electoral process – from the approval of candidates to the counting of votes – is controlled by the powers that be. There is no independent body in Syria that could guarantee free elections.
I did not ask for a proof that free elections were guaranteed,I asked a proof for your claim that the elections were falsified . The fact that Syria is ruled by a dictator who is supported by the population is not a proof that the elections were falsified .

User avatar
Princess Perfume
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: 27 Mar 2014 10:11
Location: BBC Television Centre, London, England

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Princess Perfume » 14 Sep 2022 10:28

I still don't understand many people's desire to rehabilitate the Central Powers of WWI. I'm glad the Hohenzollerns and Habsburgs and Ottomans are gone and only want to view them from a distance.

I guess men in feathered hats and pretty princesses are more interesting for the popular memory than the mass murders by the Kaiser's Reich in German South-West Africa?

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 14 Sep 2022 11:23

Princess Perfume wrote:
14 Sep 2022 10:28
I still don't understand many people's desire to rehabilitate the Central Powers of WWI. I'm glad the Hohenzollerns and Habsburgs and Ottomans are gone and only want to view them from a distance.

I guess men in feathered hats and pretty princesses are more interesting for the popular memory than the mass murders by the Kaiser's Reich in German South-West Africa?
The French did the same in Morocco and Algeria,Italy did the same in Libya, US in the Philippines,Britain in Kenya and Ireland and Scotland ,Russia in the Caucasus, the tribes of SWA did the same against other tribes ....

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 9903
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Sep 2022 20:21

Hi ljadw,

What do you mean by "the same"? Clearly all the circumstances you list differed in many ways. What commonalities are you suggesting?

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
Member
Posts: 13611
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 19 Sep 2022 06:02

All colonial wars resulted in '' mass murders '' ,the same applies for the wars between African tribes .
When civilians fight against soldiers,they can't expect any mercy .
That the circumstances differed,does not change the conclusion .
French, British, etc,etc , attacked villages,killed civilians, put them in camps, etc My Lai is current practice .
The Herreros revolted against the Germans and the Germans killed a lot of Herreros.
BTW : they did not exterminate them , there are today more Herreros than 100 years ago .
And if the Germans should apologize, so should do the other colonial powers,and so should do most African states .
What is the difference between what happened (happens ) in South Sudan, Ethiopia, Congo, Afghanistan, Birma,....and that what happened in Namibia ?
Outside the West, the Convention of Geneve is a joke .

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1108
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Loïc » 19 Sep 2022 15:55

not really the opinion of Jacques Frémeaux, La Sorbonne De quoi fut fait l'Empire - les guerres coloniales au XIXe siècle with comparisons among colonial powers France Britain Germany Netherlands Italy Portugal Spain Belgium including Russia and United States

the cost of these wars, which ultimately seems quite low, insofar as the war of conquest was mainly to the detriment of the vanquished.
Finally, with regard to the cruelty of these wars, the author makes an assessment of the overall human losses which he estimates for the whole period at 150,000 per year on the side of the colonized from 1830 to 1914. The losses are more linked disease or the disruption of supply circuits than to the battles themselves. However, some military leaders behave with attitudes that today could be described as genocidal. One thinks in particular of the attitude of General Von Trotha during the revolt of the Herreros in Namibia.



it should be noted that if we should not hesitate to designate as "war crimes" a number of acts, we can't, with the exception of the Herreros, find intentions of total destruction which tend to characterize the genocide

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7467
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 19 Sep 2022 16:34

How it was when the locals ran things:
Dahomey.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 9903
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Sep 2022 06:13

Hi ljadw,

You post,

"All colonial wars resulted in ''mass murders'' ". Really? What do you mean by "mass murder"?

You say, "the same applies for the wars between African tribes." I am not sure that we can be definitive on that due to lack of pre-contact evidence. There seems to have been a strong element of ritual in warfare in some primitive societies.

You say, "When civilians fight against soldiers, they can't expect any mercy ." Why not? The laws of war don't preclude mercy.

You say, "That the circumstances differed, does not change the conclusion." It will if couched in such generalized terms as to be nearly meaningless.

Cheers,

Sid.

Return to “Other eras”