Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Discussions on other historical eras.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Jan 2023 02:38

Hi ljadew,

You post, "Thus it is not on a Western to decide who the bad guys are in the ME ,but this is reserved only to the inhabitants of the ME ."

Why?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 17 Jan 2023 12:06

Obvious :people in the ME whom we label as bad guys,can be considered as good guys by the inhabitants of their countries .
Ex:a lot of wokes in the US consider Assad as a bad guy,but the majority of the Syrians support him .
Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism,imperialism and racism .
Kipling is dead .Since 1936 .
Besides : it is totally irrelevant if they oppress their minorities or not,the only thing that counts is if they are a danger for us .
Last week,Iran executed someone they accused of espionage (an Iranian Rosenberg ),this caused a lot of indignation in Britain,although it IS NOT BRITAIN's BUSINESS,and Iran protested rightly against this western interference in their domestic policy .
If Iran would protest against the Scottish transgender law,Britain would consider this justifiedly as an interference in its domestic affairs .
I don't care if Iran executes a lot of Iranians, but I do care that the Iranian secret police is operating with impunity in Europe .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Jan 2023 14:42

Hi ljadw,

I ask again. Why does the fact "people in the ME whom we label as bad guys, can be considered as good guys by the inhabitants of their countries" preclude the West from having an opinion on the subject?

Who says a majority of Syrians support Assad. The course of the fighting, where he began with a virtual monopoly of weaponry but eventually had to call in Russia to save his bacon, very much implies otherwise.

You say, "Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism, imperialism and racism." Why?

You post, "Last week,Iran executed someone they accused of espionage, this caused a lot of indignation in Britain, although it IS NOT BRITAIN's BUSINESS". Really? What passports did he carry?

You post, "If Iran would protest against the Scottish transgender law, Britain would consider this justifiedly as an interference in its domestic affairs ."" Heck, even the SNP think that! What is your point?

You post, "I don't care if Iran executes a lot of Iranians, but I do care that the Iranian secret police is operating with impunity in Europe." Why? Isn't that hypocritically contradicting your "Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism, imperialism and racism"?

Cheers,

Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 17 Jan 2023 15:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Jan 2023 14:42
Hi ljadw,

I ask again. Why does the fact "people in the ME whom we label as bad guys, can be considered as good guys by the inhabitants of their countries" preclude the West from having an opinion on the subject?

Who says a majority of Syrians support Assad. The course of the fighting, where he began with a virtual monopoly of weaponry but eventually had to call in Russia to save his bacon, very much implies otherwise.

You say, "Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism, imperialism and racism." Why?

You post, "Last week,Iran executed someone they accused of espionage, this caused a lot of indignation in Britain, although it IS NOT BRITAIN's BUSINESS". Really? What passports did he carry?

You post, "If Iran would protest against the Scottish transgender law, Britain would consider this justifiedly as an interference in its domestic affairs ."" Heck, even the SNP think that! What is your point?

You post, "I don't care if Iran executes a lot of Iranians, but I do care that the Iranian secret police is operating with impunity in Europe." Why? Isn't that hypocritically contradicting your "Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism, imperialism and racism"?

Cheers,

Sid.
1 Most of those in the West who have an opinion about what is happening outside the West (why do they have an opinion ? ) want to impose their opinion on people outside the West ,something which is nothing else than colonialism .
2 Assad won because most Syrians supported him : no dictator can rule without the support of the majority of his people or against the opposition of the majority of his people ..And there is no proof that ISIS would rule Syria without the Russian intervention .If the majority of the Syrians had opposed Assad,it was over for him .If the majority of the Germans had opposed Hitler in 1938, it was over for him . It was the same for Stalin and his successors .
3 Saying who is good,bad in the world makes you some one not different from the Islamists who want to impose sharia in Europe and the US .Thus a colonialist,racist and imperialist .
4 That the executed person in Iran had 2 passports : a British and an Iranian,is totally irrelevant ;he lived in Iran and only, ONLY the Iranian law can judge him ,the British law has no place in Iran as the Iranian law has no place in Britain .
5 The Scottish transgender law is not the business of people outside the UK .And Iranian is not protesting against this law or against the reaction of the UK government against this law .But Britain is protesting against a decision of the Iranian justice, while Iran is not protesting against a decision of the British justice .
6 I said very clearly that what is happening in Iran is not my business but that I protest against the activity of the Iranian (and also Turkish ) secret police outside the borders of Iran and Turkey . These polices have no right to kill people outside their countries .
I do not judge their activities in their own country (I am not Iranian or Turkish ) but I do oppose their illegal activities outside Turkey/Iran .I do not oppose the plans of the new Israeli government,neither do I defend them, but I would condemn kidnappings and murders by the Mossad in Belgium .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Jan 2023 18:28

Hi ljadw,

Where is your proof that, "Most of those in the West who have an opinion about what is happening outside the West want to impose their opinion on people outside the West." And no, holding an opinion is not colonialism. If it was, you would be up there with Cecil Rhodes!

You ask of the West, "why do they have an opinion ?". Why should they not? You do!

Most Syrians did not support Assad. However, they were not united in the alternative. The Kurds wanted their own state. The Sunni majority generally wanted rid of the Assads and the Alawites. Among them were ISIS. The Alawite minority and probably most Christians were prepared to tolerate Asad, but they are a minority.

Assad has not "won". He still does not control much of the country. He only survived because the Russians intervened to save him and the US largely dealt with ISIS.

You post, "no dictator can rule without the support of the majority of his people or against the opposition of the majority of his people." That is the whole point of dictators - they can over ride and ignore public opinion.

You say, "And there is no proof that ISIS would rule Syria without the Russian intervention ." True, but (1) I never mentioned ISIS, (2) ISIS was not all the opposition and (3) the fighting was going the opposition's way prior to Russian intervention and this was despite Assad beginning with all the aircraft, all the tanks, all the artillery and the overwhelming majority of all other weaponry in the country.

You say, "If the majority of the Syrians had opposed Assad ,it was over for him." They did and it likely was - until the Russians intervened.

You post, "Saying who is good, bad in the world makes you some one not different from the Islamists who want to impose sharia in Europe and the US . Thus a colonialist, racist and imperialist ." Why?

Yes, the executed also carried a British passport, so the British had an entirely legitimate interest in his fate.

You post, "The Scottish transgender law is not the business of people outside the UK .And Iranian is not protesting against this law or against the reaction of the UK government against this law ." True. Nobody here has said otherwise, so why bring it up if it is a non-issue in our context.

You post, "Britain is protesting against a decision of the Iranian justice". Yup. As we have seen, the executed man also had British citizenship, so its concern is entirely justified.

You post, "while Iran is not protesting against a decision of the British justice ." Yup. Why would it? What is your point?

You post, "I said very clearly that what is happening in Iran is not my business....." and yet you have been expressing an opinion on it here. Isn't that inconsistent and hypocritical?

You post, "I protest against the activity of the Iranian (and also Turkish ) secret police outside the borders of Iran and Turkey . These polices have no right to kill people outside their countries ." Yup, and often within their countries, either. Why would any regime at ease with its population need a secret police anyway? Secret police are the tool of dictatorships.

Cheers,

Sid

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 17 Jan 2023 20:07

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Jan 2023 18:28
Hi ljadw,

Where is your proof that, "Most of those in the West who have an opinion about what is happening outside the West want to impose their opinion on people outside the West." And no, holding an opinion is not colonialism. If it was, you would be up there with Cecil Rhodes!

You ask of the West, "why do they have an opinion ?". Why should they not? You do!

Most Syrians did not support Assad. However, they were not united in the alternative. The Kurds wanted their own state. The Sunni majority generally wanted rid of the Assads and the Alawites. Among them were ISIS. The Alawite minority and probably most Christians were prepared to tolerate Asad, but they are a minority.

Assad has not "won". He still does not control much of the country. He only survived because the Russians intervened to save him and the US largely dealt with ISIS.

You post, "no dictator can rule without the support of the majority of his people or against the opposition of the majority of his people." That is the whole point of dictators - they can over ride and ignore public opinion.

You say, "And there is no proof that ISIS would rule Syria without the Russian intervention ." True, but (1) I never mentioned ISIS, (2) ISIS was not all the opposition and (3) the fighting was going the opposition's way prior to Russian intervention and this was despite Assad beginning with all the aircraft, all the tanks, all the artillery and the overwhelming majority of all other weaponry in the country.

You say, "If the majority of the Syrians had opposed Assad ,it was over for him." They did and it likely was - until the Russians intervened.

You post, "Saying who is good, bad in the world makes you some one not different from the Islamists who want to impose sharia in Europe and the US . Thus a colonialist, racist and imperialist ." Why?

Yes, the executed also carried a British passport, so the British had an entirely legitimate interest in his fate.

You post, "The Scottish transgender law is not the business of people outside the UK .And Iranian is not protesting against this law or against the reaction of the UK government against this law ." True. Nobody here has said otherwise, so why bring it up if it is a non-issue in our context.

You post, "Britain is protesting against a decision of the Iranian justice". Yup. As we have seen, the executed man also had British citizenship, so its concern is entirely justified.

You post, "while Iran is not protesting against a decision of the British justice ." Yup. Why would it? What is your point?

You post, "I said very clearly that what is happening in Iran is not my business....." and yet you have been expressing an opinion on it here. Isn't that inconsistent and hypocritical?

You post, "I protest against the activity of the Iranian (and also Turkish ) secret police outside the borders of Iran and Turkey . These polices have no right to kill people outside their countries ." Yup, and often within their countries, either. Why would any regime at ease with its population need a secret police anyway? Secret police are the tool of dictatorships.

Cheers,

Sid
Theresa May said that the epoch when the West could impose its values on the rest of the world,was over . The Blairites and their allies in the US have tried to do this,but failed .The reason why they tried to do this was because they had an opinion about what was happening outside the west,opinion coloured by their parochialism .
My opinion is that what happens outside Europe is not my business, unless it threatens my interests .
Yes : most Syrians support Assad .The Kurds support him in the war against ISIS and in the war against Turkey .
There is no proof that the Sunnites in Syria are hostile to Assad because they are Sunnites : religion does not dominate life in Syria .The wife of Assad is Sunni .
Assad controls most of Syria.The rest is mainly in the hands of Turkey and its ally ISIS .
And it were not the Russians or the US who dealt with ISIS .Til Trump came, US supported ISIS and it was the Syrian army which defeated ISIS ,although his air force was almost not existent .
About the secret police : you have a wrong notion of a dictatorship .
To survive a dictator (all dictators ) need the following
1 a secret police to eliminate,better to counter the activities of the minority who is hostile to the regime .The majority is neutral ( in Syria the majority supports Assad because the opposition /ISIS /AQ is worse ) and an other minority supports the regime ,mainly not for ideological reasons .
2 a propaganda service that highlights the successes of the regime and hides the failures .
3 and this is decisive : a successful economic and social policy ,otherwise the regime collaps and the secret police can not kill the majority of the people .
Before the war Syria had the most ( or only ) successful economic policy of the ME and that was why the population ( excepted for the usual stupid ''intellectuals '' ) were supporting Assad .
There were 6 million people without a job in Germany before Hitler,this was the reason why the Germans elected him,if there were still 6 million people without a job in 1938, it was over for him .
It was the same in Austria : the mass unemployment without almost any social security alienated the Austrians,farmers,workers, Catholics or not, from the Schuschnig regime .
As the communist Berthold Brecht said : erst kommt das Fressen und dan die Moral .
Food comes first,ideology ( a luxury for most people ) comes later .
The rest of the reply comes later .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Jan 2023 21:47

Hi ljadw,

I look forward to the rest of your reply.

Will it start to directly address any of the points in my last post?

Cheers,

Sid.

CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by CogCalgary » 18 Jan 2023 13:51

The location of many of these Tegart Forts appears to have been to protect Jewish settlers.

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2023 15:24

It seems Tegart carried water for the Palestinian Jews, but at least his brutalist architecture was glorious:
The Tegart fortress at Salha, north of Safad.png
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CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by CogCalgary » 19 Jan 2023 03:35

Should last forever in that climate.
This one near Jericho,it seems unclear if it still exists.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... tation.jpg

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2023 16:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
17 Jan 2023 21:47
Hi ljadw,

I look forward to the rest of your reply.

Will it start to directly address any of the points in my last post?

Cheers,

Sid.
About Islamists and Sharia and those in the West who claim that they only have the right to say who is good and bad outside the West .
The partisans of Sharia want to impose their law outside the Islam because they claim that they are the good guys and the others the bad guys. They are convinced that they are morally superior .
Those in the West who claim that they are the only to decide what/who is good and what/who is bad for people outside the West ,do the same thing as the Sharia gang . Both are racists,imperialists and colonialists .
There is no universal moral on earth :every country has its own moral . Slavery existed in Africa since thousands of years and suddenly some people in Europe came to Africa and said that slavery violated their morality and thus it must disappear .
This is imperialism,colonialism and racism .
About the Scottish transgender law : this is the business of the UK only and Iran does not interfere .The condemnation and execution of the man with double nationality is the business of Iran only,because he lived in Iran and the UK government has no right to interfere . There is no place for British law outside the UK .The epoch of Palmerston who said :I am a civis Britannicus and claimed a privileged situation for British citizens outside Britain ,this epoch is over .
Yesterday a Russian living in the US and founder of the cryptocurrency thing ( or should I say :the cryptocurrency fraud ? ) was arrested on suspicion of fraud .AFAICS, Russia nor Iran protested because they have no business with what the US justice is doing ,even if the man would be hanged .
The interference of the UK in the domestic affairs of Iran proves a colonialist,imperialist and racist mentality in the FO .
About the activities of the Iranian and Turkish secret police outside their borders :when they are kidnapping and killing people outside Iran and Turkey, they are violating the sovereignty of other countries .
When they kill,kidnap people in their own country, what they do is legal and not our business .
Other point : that these countries have a secret police does not prove that the majority of the population is hostile to them : the aim of a secret police is to silence or eliminate the opposition against the regime, not to act against the majority of the people, who is mostly indifferent .
Before the war ,less than one on thousand Germans were sent to the camps,because less than one on thousand Germans actively opposed the regime . The majority remained indifferent .
While the figures for the USSR are different, the principle remained the same :most Germans were not Nazis,anti-Nazi and most Russians were not Communists or anti-Communists .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by Sid Guttridge » 19 Jan 2023 19:43

Hi ljadw,

You post, "The interference of the UK in the domestic affairs of Iran proves a colonialist, imperialist and racist mentality in the FO."

What "interference"? The last such interference of note was in 1953. That is 70 years ago! Then your accusation might have had some merit.

Protesting today at the secret trial and execution of a person holding dual British nationality is not interference in Iranian domestic affairs. It is a normal act of diplomatic representation after an event that is of legitimate concern and genuine relevance to the UK.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2023 19:47

If "there is no universal moral on earth"
there are no "racists, imperialists and colonialists" either
only opinions that they exist.

There were many things that today are condemned as evil, although they were the norm in their times.
Even the conquered people had no problem with colonialism/imperialism - they were merely offended that they weren't the victors.
Even more - the victims of the Mughal, Aztec, Ethiopian Empires, or the Kingdom of Dahomey, couldn't believe their luck when their European liberators arrived.

But anyway, this is true and proves the superiority of European culture.
All the universal ills and evils the West stopped first. Not the Asians, Arabs, or Africans.
Prove me wrong.

CogCalgary
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by CogCalgary » 20 Jan 2023 05:48

ljadw wrote:
17 Jan 2023 12:06
Obvious :people in the ME whom we label as bad guys,can be considered as good guys by the inhabitants of their countries .
Ex:a lot of wokes in the US consider Assad as a bad guy,but the majority of the Syrians support him .
Those in the West who dictate who are the good and bad guys in the world can be rightly accused of colonialism,imperialism and racism .
Kipling is dead .Since 1936 .
Besides : it is totally irrelevant if they oppress their minorities or not,the only thing that counts is if they are a danger for us .
Last week,Iran executed someone they accused of espionage (an Iranian Rosenberg ),this caused a lot of indignation in Britain,although it IS NOT BRITAIN's BUSINESS,and Iran protested rightly against this western interference in their domestic policy .
If Iran would protest against the Scottish transgender law,Britain would consider this justifiedly as an interference in its domestic affairs .
I don't care if Iran executes a lot of Iranians, but I do care that the Iranian secret police is operating with impunity in Europe .
Syrians that I have spoken with felt that Assad was a graft gobbling pig.Religion seems to be everything.Besides money.

ljadw
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Re: Since 1917 105 years of western blunders in the Middle east

Post by ljadw » 20 Jan 2023 09:41

The main reason why the Syrians support Assad is that Syria has the best ( or only ) social security system in the ME .And Assad is Alawite,but his wife is Sunnite .
The Kurds support him because for them he is better than Erdogan .They have some autonomy in Syria but are oppressed in Turkey .

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