news from Russo-Ukraine Front

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johnwilliamhunter
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#346

Post by johnwilliamhunter » 23 Sep 2022, 17:50

Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:31
johnwilliamhunter wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:25
Russia have said themselves that, if the conflict comes to be on territory Russia regards as theirs, which Luhansk, Donetsk, occupied Zaporozhye and Kherson will be if the referendums succeed, they can use all means to defend it.
Yeah and if the US orchestrates a referendum about annexing Russia, then Moscow suddenly becomes part of the United States?
I guess so, if they say so.

EDIT: although to be a fair comparison Moscow would have to hold the referendum on joining the US.
Last edited by johnwilliamhunter on 23 Sep 2022, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#347

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Sep 2022, 17:56

The Oryx blog is effectively a non-count of Ukrainian losses. So per June, the blog only counted:

30% of admitted Ukrainian tank losses
18% of admitted IFV losses
13% of admitted artillery losses.


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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#348

Post by Peter89 » 23 Sep 2022, 18:19

Cult Icon wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:40
Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 16:45


Second, I think if the Russian army fills up its formations with reservist infantry according to the doctrine you quote, it is only a good choice if there is a reasonable chance to crush the Ukrainians in decisive battles. Russia have General Winter on its side for the next 6 months to come (although it is questionable how effective will that be), but when the winter is over and the campaigning season starts, Russia has to produce decisive results, because it can not keep a large army on the field (engaged in heavy combat) for a long time.

This is why I think the Russians can do two reasonable things; one is to swap the trained and equipped formations with the reservists and crush the Ukrainians at the onset of the cold winter, breaking the morale of both the Ukrainians and the Europeans; the other is to retrain and equip all formations by the next campaigning season, and then try to break Ukraine systematically.
The Doctrinally correct army is the only one that can pull off maneuver warfare and encirclements and create a full victory over Ukraine. But the losses that it will entail will not be popular at home, even if the Ukrainian army is destroyed. You have a point on the great political risk that this entails.

So do you believe that the Russians, in the possible Winter campaign- will send a similar type of army they did on Feb 24th (Artillery army with tanks, with infantry forces concentrated in VDV/Naval infantry)? This would constitute a second wave and once again artillery centric army with low maneuver possibilities.
I believe that the Russian leadership tries to regain the strategic latitude on multiple areas and levels of warfare.

It is clear that the Russian intelligence service is inferior, and I very seriously doubt that an all-out attack order would be given if there is any chance for a failure. It is also very doubtful whether Europe's morale will be broken in the winter. The Europeans have paid an immense amount of money to Russia for the energy imports, but secured a buffer that is enough for the winter ahead. This card is the strongest now. Next year, the dependency on Russian energy will be much lower, and it will be close to nothing in a few years. Thus, the economic battle is leading to nowhere, really. On the diplomatic scale, it is still very much questionable whether the anti-west coalition will support Putin's Russia or profit from its downfall. Also, Russia has not started to wear down Ukraine's critical civilian infrastructure, although as far as I know, they are capable of doing it. Maybe they try to wait for the worst possible moment for the Ukrainian and the European populations (around late December-early January).

On the military scale, Ukrainian defenses and the general state of their army will improve as time goes by. The Western help will reach its lowest ebb soon, but it will gradually increase as soon as the deliveries of the new equipment start. It is also clear that Russia has an immense - but not endless - stock of ammunition and other equipment, but these can not go down to zero either. And the capacity to replace these stocks with modern technology is questionable given the state of the economy.

Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense. The strike will probably encompass multiple attacks on critical infrastructure (power systems, heating systems, water services, etc.) and most likely coincede with a political turmoil in Europe, at a very cold winter period to maximize the effect. I think they will refrain from amphibious attacks like the one at Gostomel, and they will build more on sheer, brute force than on surprise and shock.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#349

Post by Aida1 » 23 Sep 2022, 18:21

Cult Icon wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 15:38
Charts like that should be taken with a grain of salt..., we are still trying to figure out the real losses of the Battle of Kursk.

Oryx blog massively undercounts Ukrainian losses, as discussed earlier. Its agenda is to present very low Ukrainian losses vs high Russian losses, like the Ukrainians are some type of supermen and not a Russian-style army using predominantly Russian equipment :lol:
You do not like to hear about the serious russian losses as always.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#350

Post by Aida1 » 23 Sep 2022, 18:24

Cult Icon wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 17:40
Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 16:45


Second, I think if the Russian army fills up its formations with reservist infantry according to the doctrine you quote, it is only a good choice if there is a reasonable chance to crush the Ukrainians in decisive battles. Russia have General Winter on its side for the next 6 months to come (although it is questionable how effective will that be), but when the winter is over and the campaigning season starts, Russia has to produce decisive results, because it can not keep a large army on the field (engaged in heavy combat) for a long time.

This is why I think the Russians can do two reasonable things; one is to swap the trained and equipped formations with the reservists and crush the Ukrainians at the onset of the cold winter, breaking the morale of both the Ukrainians and the Europeans; the other is to retrain and equip all formations by the next campaigning season, and then try to break Ukraine systematically.
The Doctrinally correct army is the only one that can pull off maneuver warfare and encirclements and create a full victory over Ukraine. But the losses that it will entail will not be popular at home, even if the Ukrainian army is destroyed. You have a point on the great political risk that this entails.

So do you believe that the Russians, in the possible Winter campaign- will send a similar type of army they did on Feb 24th (Artillery army with tanks, with infantry forces concentrated in VDV/Naval infantry)? This would constitute a second wave and once again artillery centric army with low maneuver possibilities.
You are living in fantasy world. The russian army is not able to use maneuver warfare against the Ukraine . It was never competent to do it and now it has become impossible. Dream on.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#351

Post by Aida1 » 23 Sep 2022, 18:27

Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:19



Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense. The strike will probably encompass multiple attacks on critical infrastructure (power systems, heating systems, water services, etc.) and most likely coincede with a political turmoil in Europe, at a very cold winter period to maximize the effect. I think they will refrain from amphibious attacks like the one at Gostomel, and they will build more on sheer, brute force than on surprise and shock.
This is pure fantasy. Russia is not materially able to do this.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#352

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Sep 2022, 18:32

Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:19

Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense. The strike will probably encompass multiple attacks on critical infrastructure (power systems, heating systems, water services, etc.) and most likely coincede with a political turmoil in Europe, at a very cold winter period to maximize the effect.
Yea, this is what they have refrained from doing for the most part, and is a step towards escalation.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#353

Post by Aida1 » 23 Sep 2022, 19:14

Cult Icon wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:32
Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:19

Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense. The strike will probably encompass multiple attacks on critical infrastructure (power systems, heating systems, water services, etc.) and most likely coincede with a political turmoil in Europe, at a very cold winter period to maximize the effect.
Yea, this is what they have refrained from doing for the most part, and is a step towards escalation.
They tried but failed and now it is too late. :D

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#354

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Sep 2022, 19:28

Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:19

Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense.
It all depends on when their units will become operational again. Meanwhile, they could attack civilian infrastructure, strategic bombing, and may even use chemical/biological weapons like they did in Syria.

Their strategy in August was material attrition and limited attacks (largely with the separatist army and PMCs) on the 2-3 echelon defenses in the Donbass while maintaining strategic defensive on other fronts. They seemed to have hoped to do this for months, until they degraded the Ukrainian army entrenched there to a critical level, leading to a withdrawal of the Zelensky line.

The recent operational-level defeat conflicts with this strategy and will force them to change course. Currently the Ukrainian forces have some local successes east of Izyum. It remains to be seen how far they will go until they burn out. The Russians are the defensive in the Northern Donbass now, while continuing attacks against the Zelensky line.


Why Kharkov? This was their least important front in the Ukraine. The garrison was there to support the Izyum salient/Donbass, and it was the smallest forces. I don't see them trying to take the city- that would be a project larger than Mariupol. I do see the possibility of an offensive to retake what was recently lost. But they do not have to do this if they successfully defend what they are holding now, and roll back the small penetrations plus redeploy forces, dig them in for a strong defense.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#355

Post by ljadw » 23 Sep 2022, 20:25

Gooner1 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 16:01

though they are clearly on the side of Ukraine, as are all decent people.
That is very childish,very meaningless and very wrong : 90 % of the inhabitants of this planet are not interested in this war,neither in the war between Armenia against Azerbaidschan, the war in Sudan, Ethiopia,etc,etc .
How many non-Ukrainians have volunteered to fight in Ukraine .

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#356

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Sep 2022, 21:34

So East of Izyum, if the Russians establish a "Putin line", and start moving formations in there, digging in- the Ukrainians will never get through.

Currently, the defenses are at a much lower level and hasty. The Ukrainians are taking advantage of the situation, the coming days will demonstrate how long as this lasts and whether or not they can score a significant tactical victory here.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#357

Post by Aida1 » 23 Sep 2022, 21:56

Cult Icon wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 19:28
Peter89 wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 18:19

Because of this I think the Russians have to act in the near future. Their objective would be something like taking Kharkov or penetrating into the strategic depths of the Ukrainian defense.
It all depends on when their units will become operational again. Meanwhile, they could attack civilian infrastructure, strategic bombing, and may even use chemical/biological weapons like they did in Syria.

Their strategy in August was material attrition and limited attacks (largely with the separatist army and PMCs) on the 2-3 echelon defenses in the Donbass while maintaining strategic defensive on other fronts. They seemed to have hoped to do this for months, until they degraded the Ukrainian army entrenched there to a critical level, leading to a withdrawal of the Zelensky line.

The recent operational-level defeat conflicts with this strategy and will force them to change course. Currently the Ukrainian forces have some local successes east of Izyum. It remains to be seen how far they will go until they burn out. The Russians are the defensive in the Northern Donbass now, while continuing attacks against the Zelensky line.


Why Kharkov? This was their least important front in the Ukraine. The garrison was there to support the Izyum salient/Donbass, and it was the smallest forces. I don't see them trying to take the city- that would be a project larger than Mariupol. I do see the possibility of an offensive to retake what was recently lost. But they do not have to do this if they successfully defend what they are holding now, and roll back the small penetrations plus redeploy forces, dig them in for a strong defense.
This is the usual prorussian spinning where russian defeats and Ukrainian victories are minimalised. Does not convince. A lot of rhetoric to hide that things have gone seriously wrong for Russia.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#358

Post by Tom Peters » 23 Sep 2022, 23:37

ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:24


You ask wrong questions
1 That the UKR attack was a ''total '' (always hyperboles ) success is not the question .
Okay.
ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:24
2 The question is if photos of lost equipment prove a retreat .And the answer is :NO
Im confused...retreat ---> lost equipment, not the other way around. We agree on this.
ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:24
3 ''fled '' is also a hyperbole
yes, it is. However, I claim:

retreat ----> some lost equipment
fled ----> much lost equipment

There is a lot of lost equipment by photographic evidence. Therefore, "fled" is more appropriate, IMHO.
ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:24
4 The fact that Oryx tries to prove a Russian retreat by publishing photos of lost equipment, photos of which there is no proof that they are genuine and of which we can doubt very much that they are genuine,is very suspect : it indicates a cooperation of Oryx with the Ukrainian propaganda
Oryx is doing nothing of the sort. Oryx is tallying equipment losses, no more- no less. Can you tell me where Oryx claims that the RU retreated ?

You dont need Oryx or other equipment loss sites to determine that the RU retreated very quickly - the RU themselves admitted they ran. Call it a "redeployment" if you want, but that is beyond kind, given how much equipment they lost.

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#359

Post by Tom Peters » 23 Sep 2022, 23:45

johnwilliamhunter wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:25
Tom Peters wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 06:08
For RU:
HOW are you going to TRAIN 300,000 soldiers
HOW are you going to EQUIP 300,000 soldiers
HOW are you going to SUPPLY 300,000 soldiers
HOW are you going to COMMAND 300,000 soldier (good luck finding trained command elements for all the new formations...)
The 300,000 soldiers Russia have mentioned are reservists, who have also served as full time soldiers, and have combat experience, and includes senior and junior officers, according to Russia, but I don't think anyone can prove that isn't the case. As for (re)training and equipping the forces, is there any reason to suspect Russia don't have training bases and armories?
Even assuming they have former experience (and there is evidence to indicate they are shoving people onto busses with no experience...), you still need a time to refresh your training. Do you want to retrain them for different roles ? More time. Is this a 2 week time, or a 2 month time period ?

Where are you going to train them ? RU basic is about a month. Most technical training is supposed to happen with their unit. BARS units and cadre have apparently been sent to the front. I cant say this with certainty, but the implication is there. So who will train/re-train 300,000 people , at least in the short term ?

As for equipping the soldiers, I have no doubts there are sufficient small arms, and light equipment (LMG mortars, RPG, etc). How about heavy equipment ? RU tank losses have been severe, and we have no indication they can crank out enough APC/tanks to replace losses in anything less than a multiple year timeline.

Mad Dog

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#360

Post by Tom Peters » 23 Sep 2022, 23:50

ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:36

Care to prove us which are genuine ?
Given the sheer number of pictures, from a variety of sources, for over 7 months, I think they point to being generally correct.

Oryx has been around long before the UKR war - at least 5 years. They have been doing this for a while.

So, if you think this is a fraud, with so many pictures available for you to review, you need to prove it. Get to work.
ljadw wrote:
23 Sep 2022, 07:36
Photos with as source a propaganda service must be considered as fraud,til they are proved to be real .
The photo of the dancing Hitler at the news of the French asking for an armistice ( the Hitler jig ) was also fabricated by the British propaganda service ,as was the photo pf the wife of Zelenski in uniform fabricated by the Ukrainian propaganda service .
Those who publish these photos must prove that they are genuine ,especially when the source of the photos is a propaganda service .
It is obvious that you don't know,or refuse to know what the mission is of a propaganda service in wartime .
Would you have believed the veracity of the photos made by the Propaganda Kompanie and published by Signal ?
Oryx != UKR. Get this into your head. Oryx was around long before the UKR war.

Dont like Oryx ? Use another equipment loss source. There are several.

How many times do I have to tell you this ?

Mad Dog

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