news from Russo-Ukraine Front

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ljadw
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#76

Post by ljadw » 15 Sep 2022, 15:09

Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 10:55
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 07:25
Sean Oliver wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 02:35
They've committed at least 1000. Oryx compiles his numbers based on photo/videos. Every one of the Russian equipment losses has a link to a photo/video of it destroyed or in Ukr hands. Also ID by model and variant

Russian Tanks Lost 1122, of which
destroyed: 671,
damaged: 44,
abandoned: 51,
captured: 356
1000 lost tanks is only 6 per day, so not an outrageous figure and probably an undercount.
Almost 7000 other Rus vehicles lost such as IFVs SPs AA etc

Ukrainian Tank losses:
Tanks 264, of which
destroyed: 143,
damaged: 5,
abandoned: 9
captured: 107
Also, prob an undercount. Ratio sounds historically similar to 90,000 + Soviet tank losses to German 25,000 in WW2 :wink:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html
Thus Oryx is counting damaged tanks as lost ? :roll:
Besides much too importance is given on the number of tank losses .There is no relation (causal or not ) between tank losses and the outcome of the battle .
Last point :WW2 is EIGHTY years ago and can not be used as norm and :the Soviets WON .
If you lose a lot of tanks, you probably are not doing well particularly if your opponent was essentially an infantry army.
In WW2 infantry armies defeated several times tank armies .

ljadw
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Posts: 15584
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#77

Post by ljadw » 15 Sep 2022, 15:36

Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 10:55
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 07:25
Sean Oliver wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 02:35
They've committed at least 1000. Oryx compiles his numbers based on photo/videos. Every one of the Russian equipment losses has a link to a photo/video of it destroyed or in Ukr hands. Also ID by model and variant

Russian Tanks Lost 1122, of which
destroyed: 671,
damaged: 44,
abandoned: 51,
captured: 356
1000 lost tanks is only 6 per day, so not an outrageous figure and probably an undercount.
Almost 7000 other Rus vehicles lost such as IFVs SPs AA etc

Ukrainian Tank losses:
Tanks 264, of which
destroyed: 143,
damaged: 5,
abandoned: 9
captured: 107
Also, prob an undercount. Ratio sounds historically similar to 90,000 + Soviet tank losses to German 25,000 in WW2 :wink:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html
Thus Oryx is counting damaged tanks as lost ? :roll:
Besides much too importance is given on the number of tank losses .There is no relation (causal or not ) between tank losses and the outcome of the battle .
Last point :WW2 is EIGHTY years ago and can not be used as norm and :the Soviets WON .
If you lose a lot of tanks, you probably are not doing well particularly if your opponent was essentially an infantry army.
In WW2 infantry armies defeated several times tank armies .
I have no faith in the Oryx photos ,as the International Institute for Strategic Studies said in November 2020 that Russia had a total of 2840 tanks (of which only a small part was committed ) and Ukraine 858 ( who all were committed ). This means that the Ukrainian army was essential not an infantry army .
Source is :Politics Stack Exchange ''What do independent reputable onlookers think of figures quoted by Ukraine for Russian losses ?
)
From the same source:
Ukraine claimed that on 17 March (after 3 weeks of fighting ) Russia had lost 444 tanks (almost half of the number with which it started the attack ) 14000 troops and 201 artillery pieces .
How could Ukraine know this ? Ukraine can know only the number of Russian POWs and even these figures are not very trustworthy :the Germans exaggerated in 1941 the numbers of Soviet POWs and the Soviet claims about German losses were ridiculous .
The golden rule is :never believe the claims of A about the losses of B and the claims of B about the losses of A .
Besides : it is very childish and also biased to investigate the losses of the opponent ,as losses do not decide the outcome of war .
We will have to wait decades after the war to know the losses and then,no one will be interested .


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Cult Icon
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#78

Post by Cult Icon » 15 Sep 2022, 15:42

gebhk wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:06
This seems an accurate analysis, feeding the debate on whether tanks have 'had their day', a debate that has been going on, on and off, for the last 100 years! The only lesson I think we can take from this debate is that relatively smaller conflicts are not always a good guide to the outcome of larger ones.
The problem is that good Anti-tank weapons are everywhere now. Infantrymen have ATGM, IFV have ATGM or some other form of AT, other tanks, helicopters, fighters, etc.

At the same time artillery has greatly increased in accuracy. Laser Guided rounds (lasered by drones or infantry) can track and knock out individual vehicles, even while they are moving (Russian Krasnopol, US Excalibur). Artillery strikes can pre-empt and inflict losses on tanks before they even engage.

It is questionable if even next-gen tanks will be able to take this sort of punishment and still continue to function.

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Aida1
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Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#79

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 15:47

ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:09
Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 10:55
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 07:25
Sean Oliver wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 02:35
They've committed at least 1000. Oryx compiles his numbers based on photo/videos. Every one of the Russian equipment losses has a link to a photo/video of it destroyed or in Ukr hands. Also ID by model and variant

Russian Tanks Lost 1122, of which
destroyed: 671,
damaged: 44,
abandoned: 51,
captured: 356
1000 lost tanks is only 6 per day, so not an outrageous figure and probably an undercount.
Almost 7000 other Rus vehicles lost such as IFVs SPs AA etc

Ukrainian Tank losses:
Tanks 264, of which
destroyed: 143,
damaged: 5,
abandoned: 9
captured: 107
Also, prob an undercount. Ratio sounds historically similar to 90,000 + Soviet tank losses to German 25,000 in WW2 :wink:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html
Thus Oryx is counting damaged tanks as lost ? :roll:
Besides much too importance is given on the number of tank losses .There is no relation (causal or not ) between tank losses and the outcome of the battle .
Last point :WW2 is EIGHTY years ago and can not be used as norm and :the Soviets WON .
If you lose a lot of tanks, you probably are not doing well particularly if your opponent was essentially an infantry army.
In WW2 infantry armies defeated several times tank armies .
You have a wild imagination.

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Aida1
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Posts: 4504
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#80

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 15:48

ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:36
Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 10:55
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 07:25
Sean Oliver wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 02:35
They've committed at least 1000. Oryx compiles his numbers based on photo/videos. Every one of the Russian equipment losses has a link to a photo/video of it destroyed or in Ukr hands. Also ID by model and variant

Russian Tanks Lost 1122, of which
destroyed: 671,
damaged: 44,
abandoned: 51,
captured: 356
1000 lost tanks is only 6 per day, so not an outrageous figure and probably an undercount.
Almost 7000 other Rus vehicles lost such as IFVs SPs AA etc

Ukrainian Tank losses:
Tanks 264, of which
destroyed: 143,
damaged: 5,
abandoned: 9
captured: 107
Also, prob an undercount. Ratio sounds historically similar to 90,000 + Soviet tank losses to German 25,000 in WW2 :wink:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html
Thus Oryx is counting damaged tanks as lost ? :roll:
Besides much too importance is given on the number of tank losses .There is no relation (causal or not ) between tank losses and the outcome of the battle .
Last point :WW2 is EIGHTY years ago and can not be used as norm and :the Soviets WON .
If you lose a lot of tanks, you probably are not doing well particularly if your opponent was essentially an infantry army.
In WW2 infantry armies defeated several times tank armies .
I have no faith in the Oryx photos ,as the International Institute for Strategic Studies said in November 2020 that Russia had a total of 2840 tanks (of which only a small part was committed ) and Ukraine 858 ( who all were committed ). This means that the Ukrainian army was essential not an infantry army .
Source is :Politics Stack Exchange ''What do independent reputable onlookers think of figures quoted by Ukraine for Russian losses ?
)
From the same source:
Ukraine claimed that on 17 March (after 3 weeks of fighting ) Russia had lost 444 tanks (almost half of the number with which it started the attack ) 14000 troops and 201 artillery pieces .
How could Ukraine know this ? Ukraine can know only the number of Russian POWs and even these figures are not very trustworthy :the Germans exaggerated in 1941 the numbers of Soviet POWs and the Soviet claims about German losses were ridiculous .
The golden rule is :never believe the claims of A about the losses of B and the claims of B about the losses of A .
Besides : it is very childish and also biased to investigate the losses of the opponent ,as losses do not decide the outcome of war .
We will have to wait decades after the war to know the losses and then,no one will be interested .
The usual contrarian stuff to make yourself sound interesting'

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Aida1
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Location: Brussels

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#81

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 15:52

Cult Icon wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 14:04
Hikari wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 13:46

Russian tank units performed incredibly bad.
Both Ukrainian and Russian tank units have performed badly. Both Ukrainian and Russian artillery and anti-tank weapons have performed well. One side has been attacking 97% of the time. Figure out which one :lol:
The typical prorussian bias again. I do not think the ukranian army has executed large scale mobile operations. If the russian army had been competent, it could have made a valid attempt at deep mobile operations.

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#82

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 15:58

Cult Icon wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:42
gebhk wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:06
This seems an accurate analysis, feeding the debate on whether tanks have 'had their day', a debate that has been going on, on and off, for the last 100 years! The only lesson I think we can take from this debate is that relatively smaller conflicts are not always a good guide to the outcome of larger ones.
The problem is that good Anti-tank weapons are everywhere now. Infantrymen have ATGM, IFV have ATGM or some other form of AT, other tanks, helicopters, fighters, etc.

At the same time artillery has greatly increased in accuracy. Laser Guided rounds (lasered by drones or infantry) can track and knock out individual vehicles, even while they are moving (Russian Krasnopol, US Excalibur). Artillery strikes can pre-empt and inflict losses on tanks before they even engage.

It is questionable if even next-gen tanks will be able to take this sort of punishment and still continue to function.
Any antitank weapon and those that carry them are vulnerable also to accurate fire. And artillery itself is also vulnerable. No weapon system is invulnerable. Armored vehicles certainly give more protection than anything that is not armored including the foot infantry men. It is all about correct tactics. And being the attacker and having the intiative gives a big advantage.

gebhk
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#83

Post by gebhk » 15 Sep 2022, 16:29

Hi Aida 1 and Cult Icon

And the 100-year-old debate continues :). Even the arguments remain much the same....

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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#84

Post by Cult Icon » 15 Sep 2022, 16:34

A huge breakthrough in Tank development and use will be required to change the status quo.

For this war I consider tanks/IFV as just infantry support. Infantry and artillery is dominant on the ground, as it was more so on the Western Front 44-45 vs the Eastern Front.

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#85

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 16:41

gebhk wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 16:29
Hi Aida 1 and Cult Icon

And the 100-year-old debate continues :). Even the arguments remain much the same....
Maneuver warfare using high mobility will remain the best way. The alternative is the unprotected infantryman slowly advancing which is very costly and slow.

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#86

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 16:45

Cult Icon wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 16:34
A huge breakthrough in Tank development and use will be required to change the status quo.

For this war I consider tanks/IFV as just infantry support. Infantry and artillery is dominant on the ground, as it was more so on the Western Front 44-45 vs the Eastern Front.
Which is entirely incorrect. That is exactly what armored vehicles are not. It is not surprising that those that are blind admirors of the russian army have no clue either how to correctly use armor.

gebhk
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#87

Post by gebhk » 15 Sep 2022, 18:06

Maneuver warfare using high mobility will remain the best way. The alternative is the unprotected infantryman slowly advancing which is very costly and slow.
There is no best way that suits all situations. Or rather there is only one - to do something that your opponent has not thought of and not had time to prepare for. But failing that, your methods have to be selected to suit the tactical strategic and political situation and, by and large, only those armies that have mastered all forms warfare, manoevre and defensive, are ultimately successful.

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#88

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 20:39

A sign of desperation. Recruiting convicts.
https://youtu.be/f7o7O1qSb9E

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Aida1
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Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#89

Post by Aida1 » 15 Sep 2022, 20:43


ljadw
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Posts: 15584
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: news from Russo-Ukraine Front

#90

Post by ljadw » 15 Sep 2022, 21:57

Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:47
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 15:09
Aida1 wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 10:55
ljadw wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 07:25
Sean Oliver wrote:
15 Sep 2022, 02:35
They've committed at least 1000. Oryx compiles his numbers based on photo/videos. Every one of the Russian equipment losses has a link to a photo/video of it destroyed or in Ukr hands. Also ID by model and variant

Russian Tanks Lost 1122, of which
destroyed: 671,
damaged: 44,
abandoned: 51,
captured: 356
1000 lost tanks is only 6 per day, so not an outrageous figure and probably an undercount.
Almost 7000 other Rus vehicles lost such as IFVs SPs AA etc

Ukrainian Tank losses:
Tanks 264, of which
destroyed: 143,
damaged: 5,
abandoned: 9
captured: 107
Also, prob an undercount. Ratio sounds historically similar to 90,000 + Soviet tank losses to German 25,000 in WW2 :wink:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/a ... pment.html
Thus Oryx is counting damaged tanks as lost ? :roll:
Besides much too importance is given on the number of tank losses .There is no relation (causal or not ) between tank losses and the outcome of the battle .
Last point :WW2 is EIGHTY years ago and can not be used as norm and :the Soviets WON .
If you lose a lot of tanks, you probably are not doing well particularly if your opponent was essentially an infantry army.
In WW2 infantry armies defeated several times tank armies .
You have a wild imagination.
The Soviets stopped the Germans in the Summer of 1941 and the Germans stopped the Soviets in the Winter of 1941-1942 .The Germans stopped the Allies in the Autumn of 1944 .

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