World War III?

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ljadw
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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 24 Sep 2022 11:54

wm wrote:
23 Sep 2022 19:11
The Myasishchev M-4 Molot strategic bomber.
The M-4 sparked fears of a "bomber gap" when 18 of the aircraft were flown publicly on May Day in 1954.
myasishchev-m4-bison.jpg

1954.png
Given the past of the NYT (it denied the starving in the USSR in 1932 ) there is not much reason to believe what Harrison Salisbury (No military expert ) was writing .

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wm
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Re: World War III?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2022 12:09

According to Soviet Air Force since 1918 by Alexander Boyd, at least 160 M-4s were built.

In the mid-1950s, some two dozen airfields were built as bomber bases in the Arctic Circle and Northern Russia from Murmansk to Eastern Siberia and supported by a special air transport organization.
In-flight refueling, particularly of the Tu-16 Badger, was given much greater emphasis from 1957 ...
Bison, Bear and Badger could have carried the thermonuclear weapon developed by the Soviet Union after 1953. In sum, before he died in 1953 Stalin could have looked forward confidently to having an intercontinental bomber force equipped with nuclear weapons and threatening the USA from forward air bases.
Aircraft, Strategy and Operations of the Soviet Air Force J. Taylor, R. Mason
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Re: World War III?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2022 12:11

Soviet wing-to-wing in-flight refueling (introduced in 1956)
Tu-16-wing-to-wing-IFR.jpg
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ljadw
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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 24 Sep 2022 20:30

wm wrote:
24 Sep 2022 12:09
According to Soviet Air Force since 1918 by Alexander Boyd, at least 160 M-4s were built.

In the mid-1950s, some two dozen airfields were built as bomber bases in the Arctic Circle and Northern Russia from Murmansk to Eastern Siberia and supported by a special air transport organization.
In-flight refueling, particularly of the Tu-16 Badger, was given much greater emphasis from 1957 ...
Bison, Bear and Badger could have carried the thermonuclear weapon developed by the Soviet Union after 1953. In sum, before he died in 1953 Stalin could have looked forward confidently to having an intercontinental bomber force equipped with nuclear weapons and threatening the USA from forward air bases.
Aircraft, Strategy and Operations of the Soviet Air Force J. Taylor, R. Mason
The range of the Tu16 Badger carrying a nuclear weapon was 4800 km divided by 2 = less than 2400 km ,thus its use in wartime was confined to Europe,it could not reach NYC and return to the USSR .
Besides, if there was a Bomber Gap, the Soviets would have launched a conventional attack on the almost meaningless NATO forces ( 6 US divisions, Britain was withdrawing ,the Bundeswehr was not ready and France fought in NA ),the fact that the Soviets did not attack proves that there was no Bomber Gap .
The production of the Bear started only in 1956, 3 years after the death of Stalin .Thus the claim that Stalin could look forward confidently before 1953 to threat the CONUS, is nonsense .

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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 24 Sep 2022 20:36

wm wrote:
24 Sep 2022 12:09
According to Soviet Air Force since 1918 by Alexander Boyd, at least 160 M-4s were built.

In the mid-1950s, some two dozen airfields were built as bomber bases in the Arctic Circle and Northern Russia from Murmansk to Eastern Siberia and supported by a special air transport organization.
In-flight refueling, particularly of the Tu-16 Badger, was given much greater emphasis from 1957 ...
Bison, Bear and Badger could have carried the thermonuclear weapon developed by the Soviet Union after 1953. In sum, before he died in 1953 Stalin could have looked forward confidently to having an intercontinental bomber force equipped with nuclear weapons and threatening the USA from forward air bases.
Aircraft, Strategy and Operations of the Soviet Air Force J. Taylor, R. Mason
The Wiki Source gives a production of 123 M-4s + 2 prototypes .

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Re: World War III?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2022 21:24

No sources given thus bst.

It's not about the capabilities of Soviet early bombers; it's about your statement:
the Soviets could not attack US cities because they had ... no bombers who could attack DC
When in fact, the Soviet long-range bombers were among the best, and some of their engines were better than the US had at the same time.
it's obvious that some Soviet bombers could comfortably bomb the continental US, some needed in-flight refueling, and some would be sent on one-way missions.

It's hard not to notice your cartoonish version of history, especially your fake, cartoonish bad guy Stalin - who, if he could, would invade Europe immediately. When in fact, in 1951, Stalin stopped the mass production of the Tu-85 (factories, everything was ready) and preferred to wait five years for the Tu-95.

The Tu-85 was more or less as capable as the contemporary Convair B-36; the Tu-95 was better but not that much better, especially by the standards of 1951.
That's the reason Alexander Boyd wrote that "before he died in 1953, Stalin could have looked forward confidently."
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Re: World War III?

Post by wm » 24 Sep 2022 21:41

More - the Tu-95K dropping the Raduga Kh-20 cruise missile. With its 3Mt warhead, it could travel up to 800 km on its own.
x20_1.jpg
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Re: World War III?

Post by mezsat2 » 04 Oct 2022 11:29

Just to clarify my original post. The mere concept of WW III is fictional. It won't be a "war", but suicide for the entire human species in a matter of hours. These ridiculous Poseidon torpedoes (meant to cause a radioactive tsunami) are a perfect example of Vlad's suicidal intentions. Technically, such weapons are entirely possible.

Recommended reading- "Dark Sun" by Richard Rhodes. Teller proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the yield of a hydrogen bomb is basically unlimited with relatively cheap quantities of lithium deuteride poured into the secondary or even 3rd/4th stage.

The Soviet Union essentially proved that theory with the Tsar Bomba test in 1962. It yielded 50+ megatons, but would have easily eclipsed 100+ MT were it built as designed with a uranium tamper rather than lead (which was cynically substituted by the Soviets to reduce fallout over their own country).

This happened 60 years ago.

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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 04 Oct 2022 11:47

wm wrote:
24 Sep 2022 21:24


When in fact, the Soviet long-range bombers were among the best, and some of their engines were better than the US had at the same time.

it's obvious that some Soviet bombers could comfortably bomb the continental US, some needed in-flight refueling, and some would be sent on one-way missions.

Stalin - who, if he could, would invade Europe immediately.
1 unproved claim
2 unproved claim
3 unproved claim

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Re: World War III?

Post by mezsat2 » 04 Oct 2022 12:35

1. Fact- Stalin privately admitted in his last years of his life that the Germans would have conquered Russia without the aid provided by the US and GB. The food, clothing and raw materials supplied allowed him to focus his industry solely on weapons. His troops wore boots and clothing shipped from the USA. They consumed SPAM in vast quantities. Putin would likely have never been born without aid from the Allies.

2. Fact- There is no rational reason for Vlad's invasion of Ukraine. Russia already has the most natural resources of any nation on the planet. Timber, petroleum, scarce minerals, on and on. What is the goal? Running off all your people to Mongolia?

3. Fact- NATO and the UN will respond immediately to any use of nuclear weapons anywhere by Putin. This will include non-NATO India and China (who could both essentially walk into Siberia right now with zero conventional deterrence from the Kremlin). 3 BILLION people combined against 140 million (dropping by the day). There would be no point in nuking anything- just walk right in and take all of it.

4. Fact- Over 100,000 American boys were gunned down (killed and injured) with Russian weapons in Vietnam. Let's not discuss proxy wars. In the end, South Vietnam didn't care enough about it to fight it themselves. Ukraine and its leadership is the polar opposite.

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Re: World War III?

Post by wm » 04 Oct 2022 13:39

mezsat2 wrote:
04 Oct 2022 12:35
2. Fact- There is no rational reason for Vlad's invasion of Ukraine. Russia already has the most natural resources of any nation on the planet. Timber, petroleum, scarce minerals, on and on. What is the goal? Running off all your people to Mongolia?
Putin is rational; he needs victories to survive because he hasn't been able to achieve anything of value so far.
The Russian economy has been in shambles for years, and he can't do anything about it.

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Re: World War III?

Post by mezsat2 » 04 Oct 2022 14:08

He could end all of this today. Withdraw all your forces from Ukraine, rejoin the national community, issue a deep, and sincere, apology to the UN. Repair the pipeline torpedoed by a Russian sub (or drone subs). Explain it was a "miscalculation" based on old Soviet doctrine, and that's it.

Then, he will obviously have to contribute to restoration of these destroyed areas. Enough oligarch assets have been seized to fund perhaps 1/3 of the rebuild.

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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 04 Oct 2022 15:20

mezsat2 wrote:
04 Oct 2022 14:08
He could end all of this today. Withdraw all your forces from Ukraine, rejoin the national community, issue a deep, and sincere, apology to the UN. Repair the pipeline torpedoed by a Russian sub (or drone subs). Explain it was a "miscalculation" based on old Soviet doctrine, and that's it.

Then, he will obviously have to contribute to restoration of these destroyed areas. Enough oligarch assets have been seized to fund perhaps 1/3 of the rebuild.
There is no proof that Nordstream 1 or 2 was were torpedoed by a Russian sub.We have only the usual blabla of the CIA media . If there was one,BBC ,CNN,NYT, WAPO, etc would show us every day .

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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 04 Oct 2022 15:29

wm wrote:
04 Oct 2022 13:39
mezsat2 wrote:
04 Oct 2022 12:35
2. Fact- There is no rational reason for Vlad's invasion of Ukraine. Russia already has the most natural resources of any nation on the planet. Timber, petroleum, scarce minerals, on and on. What is the goal? Running off all your people to Mongolia?
Putin is rational; he needs victories to survive because he hasn't been able to achieve anything of value so far.
The Russian economy has been in shambles for years, and he can't do anything about it.
There is no proof for your claim that the Russian economy has been in shambles for years ,if such proof existed, the CIA media would show it to us,24 hours a day .
Ukraine became independent in 1992 . Till 2014 ,Russia,ruled by Putin since 2000,did nothing .Only in 2014 because of Euromaidan, did it react,and than, til February 2022 , ir did again nothing .
If he invaded Ukraine in February 2022 because his economy was in shambles, that means that in February 2021 ,his economy was not in shambles,as he did not invade Ukraine in 2021 .

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Re: World War III?

Post by ljadw » 04 Oct 2022 15:40

mezsat2 wrote:
04 Oct 2022 12:35
1. Fact- Stalin privately admitted in his last years of his life that the Germans would have conquered Russia without the aid provided by the US and GB. The food, clothing and raw materials supplied allowed him to focus his industry solely on weapons. His troops wore boots and clothing shipped from the USA. They consumed SPAM in vast quantities. Putin would likely have never been born without aid from the Allies.

2. Fact- There is no rational reason for Vlad's invasion of Ukraine. Russia already has the most natural resources of any nation on the planet. Timber, petroleum, scarce minerals, on and on. What is the goal? Running off all your people to Mongolia?

3. Fact- NATO and the UN will respond immediately to any use of nuclear weapons anywhere by Putin. This will include non-NATO India and China (who could both essentially walk into Siberia right now with zero conventional deterrence from the Kremlin). 3 BILLION people combined against 140 million (dropping by the day). There would be no point in nuking anything- just walk right in and take all of it.

4. Fact- Over 100,000 American boys were gunned down (killed and injured) with Russian weapons in Vietnam. Let's not discuss proxy wars. In the end, South Vietnam didn't care enough about it to fight it themselves. Ukraine and its leadership is the polar opposite.
1 I didn't know that you were present during Stalin's nightly alcohol talkings at the Kremlin . If Stalin said what you claim , the CIA media would tell this to the whole world .
2 There is a rational reason, but we don't know him . We can only guess .If there was no rational reason, there would be an irrational reason,for which there is no proof .
3 UN will do nothing as it has no conventional or nuclear forces .And the claim that India and China will attack Russia with nuclear weapons remains a claim . Nothing more .
It is the same for the claim that Russia will use nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons will give Russia not victory in Ukraine .
4 That this happend by the use of Russian weapons is again something unproved : NV also had its own weapons and China, neighbor of NV,produced also weapons .

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