Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

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Tom Peters
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Tom Peters » 14 Feb 2023 03:44

Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2023 08:50

It can practically drag on forever. And during all these years, the EU will be weaker, Russia will be weaker, and Ukraine will be devastated. Thus, again, isn't it time for peace talks?
Never a bad idea, but the 2 sides are so far apart on their goals, not much can happen.

Mad Dog

Michael Kenny
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 04:24

wm wrote:
13 Feb 2023 11:13

In the forties, they lost ~200,000 people (not to mention ~400,000 arrested/deported) fighting the Soviets in much more desperate circumstances.
Remind me of what The Soviets lost/endured in WW2.

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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Peter89 » 14 Feb 2023 08:34

Tom Peters wrote:
14 Feb 2023 03:44
Peter89 wrote:
13 Feb 2023 08:50

It can practically drag on forever. And during all these years, the EU will be weaker, Russia will be weaker, and Ukraine will be devastated. Thus, again, isn't it time for peace talks?
Never a bad idea, but the 2 sides are so far apart on their goals, not much can happen.

Mad Dog
The Russian goals can not be realized, and the Ukrainian goals can not be realized either. The escalation of the conflict is not in the best interest of any participants on the continent. This is one of the ways how wars end.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Gooner1
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Gooner1 » 14 Feb 2023 13:32

Tom Peters wrote:
14 Feb 2023 03:42
Wow, that sarcasm came shining through loud and clear. No problems with the volume dial.

I dont know you, and I dont know "sid".

I dont know your thoughts on the subject either. Thats not much of an exchange.

Mad Dog
Well he isn't a supporter of Ukraine, which makes him a de facto supporter of Russia, hence all the yadda yadda about Ukraine supporters being cold war warriors who want nuclear war, the dismemberment of poor ickle Russia and all the rest of it.

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wm
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by wm » 14 Feb 2023 14:07

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Feb 2023 04:24
wm wrote:
13 Feb 2023 11:13

In the forties, they lost ~200,000 people (not to mention ~400,000 arrested/deported) fighting the Soviets in much more desperate circumstances.
Remind me of what The Soviets lost/endured in WW2.
Soviet losses are irrelevant here. It was a regular army, and its soldiers didn't have any choice but to die for the regime.
The Ukrainians were all volunteers - it was a partisan army.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 14:34

Gooner1 wrote:
14 Feb 2023 13:32


hence all the yadda yadda about Ukraine supporters being cold war warriors who want nuclear war, the dismemberment of poor ickle Russia and all the rest of it.
You mean these Cold War warriors ?
wm wrote:
13 Feb 2023 11:13

Russia has to be humiliated; "otherwise, we will see decades of this kind of behavior ahead of us."
Aida1 wrote:
12 Feb 2023 08:33
Russia is a threat and needs to be destroyed as a military and economical power.
Aida1 wrote:
12 Feb 2023 08:38
The only threat besides Russia is China which can be dealt with. More than allies enough for that.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 14 Feb 2023 14:40, edited 2 times in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 14:39

wm wrote:
14 Feb 2023 14:07

Soviet losses are irrelevant here.
No they are not.
Your point was that the Ukrainians had severe losses in WW2 and thus are able to stand them today. Following through on your logic shows The Soviets took far more losses and they can take far more punishment.
You did not think it through did you?
it is also a perfect example of the 'fight to the last Ukrainian' mindset of the Cold War Warrior.

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wm
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by wm » 14 Feb 2023 15:06

The point is the Ukrainians aren't surrender monkeys, and they have a great tradition of not being surrender monkeys (starting from that guy Khmelnytsky), so they aren't going to accept territorial loses.

Of course, a well-organized army of a totalitarian country can take lots of punishment, even if partially made up from hostile to the regime people. They simply have no choice.
The Stalinist Soviet Army was a good example and the Maoist Chinese Army another.

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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 16:00

wm wrote:
14 Feb 2023 15:06
The point is the Ukrainians aren't surrender monkeys, and they have a great tradition of not being surrender monkeys (starting from that guy Khmelnytsky), so they aren't going to accept territorial loses.
Poland did at the end of WW2. Germany also gave up territory. Are you saying Ukraine is somehow a special case and that she will never cede an inch ?

Please go on the record so we can quote you back when the deals are signed.

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wm
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by wm » 14 Feb 2023 16:20

Poland and Germany were forced at gunpoint; it wasn't their decision.

Territories lost to an aggressor could be recovered at some point in time - in ten or even a hundred years.
But ceded territories are gone forever.
So even from a political point of view, it's unreasonable to accept territorial losses.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 16:42

wm wrote:
14 Feb 2023 16:20
Poland and Germany were forced at gunpoint; it wasn't their decision.

Territories lost to an aggressor could be recovered at some point in time - in ten or even a hundred years.
But ceded territories are gone forever.
So even from a political point of view, it's unreasonable to accept territorial losses.

So when you said

''The point is the Ukrainians aren't surrender monkeys, and they have a great tradition of not being surrender monkeys (starting from that guy Khmelnytsky), so they aren't going to accept territorial loses.''

What you meant was :

''the point is the Ukrainians aren't surrender monkeys, and they have a great tradition of not being surrender monkeys (starting from that guy Khmelnytsky), so they aren't going to accept territorial loses-unless the Russian force them at gunpoint.''

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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Gooner1 » 14 Feb 2023 17:00

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Feb 2023 14:34
You mean these Cold War warriors ?
Putin is managing to destroy Russia's reputation, military and economy almost by himself amidst all his war crimes. Yet to see one word of criticism of him from you.
it is also a perfect example of the 'fight to the last Ukrainian' mindset of the Cold War Warrior.
Oh, there we go, clap-clap, classic Kremlin Troll theme, though one we haven't seen much of in a while - somebody else, presumably evil Westerners, are forcing the poor Ukrainians to fight for their land and freedom. :roll:

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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2023 17:43

Gooner1 wrote:
14 Feb 2023 17:00

Oh, there we go, clap-clap, classic Kremlin Troll theme, though one we haven't seen much of in a while - somebody else, presumably evil Westerners, are forcing the poor Ukrainians to fight for their land and freedom.
I said this earlier:

Michael Kenny wrote:
12 Feb 2023 05:50


There are two types of posters in these threads.
1. Those who report the facts on the ground. Sometimes there are Russian setbacks and sometimes Ukrainian setbacks. Future strategy is discussed including an expected (even by The Ukrainians) Russian spring offensive.
2. Those who are actively supporting Ukraine and vigorously deny/dispute every report about a Ukrainian setback. They shout-down and slander anyone who does not 150% support Ukraine as a Russian troll. They eschew fact and instead post mainly their dreams of a total Russian collapse and a Ukrainian victory.
And your contributions in these thread show that you are very firmly in category number no 2 :


' Those who are actively supporting Ukraine and vigorously deny/dispute every report about a Ukrainian setback. They shout-down and slander anyone who does not 150% support Ukraine as a Russian troll.'

Gooner1
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by Gooner1 » 14 Feb 2023 23:13

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Feb 2023 17:43

And your contributions in these thread show that you are very firmly in category number no 2 :


' Those who are actively supporting Ukraine and vigorously deny/dispute every report about a Ukrainian setback. They shout-down and slander anyone who does not 150% support Ukraine as a Russian troll.'
That's the spirit, 'the best defence is a good offence'. Attack others in an attempt to portray yourself as a moderate whilst you slyly profer and insinuate the standard Kremlin Troll themes.

The reality, of course, is that Ukraines supporters in the West and elsewhere are the solid majority in the middle, the sober centre. Russia's supporters are the extremists (and the mentally ill, if this thread is any indication.)

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wm
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Re: Where are all of Russia's much touted advanced weapons?

Post by wm » 14 Feb 2023 23:20

Michael Kenny wrote:
14 Feb 2023 16:42
''the point is the Ukrainians aren't surrender monkeys, and they have a great tradition of not being surrender monkeys (starting from that guy Khmelnytsky), so they aren't going to accept territorial loses-unless the Russian force them at gunpoint.''
Yes, but the problem is Russia is alone and too weak for that. Even China isn't supporting Russia in this.
Germany and Poland were forced by a coalition of world powers - that made the act irreversible, final, and basically legal.
Legality = possession + international recognition.

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