The Iron Wall

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Princess Perfume
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Princess Perfume » 02 Nov 2023 18:51

wm wrote:
02 Nov 2023 10:45
Princess Perfume wrote:
05 May 2023 10:31
The longer it drags on, the stronger Israel's demographic position becomes and the less viable a Palestinian state in J&S would be.
However, 4.4 million Palestinians live in the Palestinian Territories, 1.3 in Israel, and 4.9 in the diaspora (mostly in neighboring Arab countries).
That's almost 50 percent more than the Jewish population of Israel and more than, for example, the population of Sweden, Greece, or Portugal.
Any proposal that involves the expulsion of 700,000 Jews is a non-starter.

Israel's GDP is twice that of Egypt and they have the only functioning market economy in the region.

They have an unbreakable alliance with the world hyperpower.

ljadw
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by ljadw » 03 Nov 2023 09:58

There is no proof and it is also very unlikely that the 4.9 million so-called Palestinians living in the diaspora are Palestinians ,as most of them never lived in '' Palestine '.
The descendants of Polish emigrants who went to the US are not Poles, but Americans ....

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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Princess Perfume » 03 Nov 2023 13:22

The 1949 ceasefire lines were never recognised international frontiers.

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 03 Nov 2023 14:09

Princess Perfume wrote:
02 Nov 2023 18:51
Any proposal that involves the expulsion of 700,000 Jews is a non-starter.

Israel's GDP is twice that of Egypt and they have the only functioning market economy in the region.

They have an unbreakable alliance with the world hyperpower.
This is why, in my opinion, it will be another endless conflict, even if there will be long times of apparent peace.

The Poles fought against Russia in numerous uprisings and fought honorably, i.e., according to the laws of war as they were known at that time.
But when it didn't work, they eventually resorted to terror.
In 1892, a student in Warsaw produced a batch of nitroglycerin, and he and his friend, with the nitroglycerin attached to their bodies, were going to enter the (Russian) Cathedral of the Holy Trinity in Warsaw and blow up the praying Russians in pieces straight to Moscow.
That was 30 years after the last uprising and 30 years of apparent peace and even collaboration.
They weren't successful, but still, the student was elected President of Poland in 1926.

Globalization41
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Globalization41 » 04 Nov 2023 12:20

Every individual in the Middle East has veto power over the peace process. Just commit a mass murder and, presto, you've got a war. ... In general, if the leadership of a sovereign or non-sovereign grouping is not qualified to facilitate wealth creation for the masses, then blame America. ... The U.S. gave near-unlimited aid to South Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. That aid was not efficiently utilized due to the natural phenomenon of corruption. ... Judging from the Israeli counterattack now underway against invading Hamas militants, U.S. aid to (at least) Israel is being more efficiently utilized. ... North Vietnam invaded South Vietnam. Meanwhile increased U.S. aid provided to the South resulted in increasing the fighting spirit of the N. Viet invaders along with enrichment of many S. Viet officials. ... Middle East Wars are like the 1956 movie The Blob. Dip your toe in and you might get swallowed.

Globalization41.

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 18 Nov 2023 20:53

Why should the Arabs make peace?
If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country.
Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs.
We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?
There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault?
They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?
David Ben-Gurion (1953), from The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy by John J Mearsheimer

Globalization41
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Globalization41 » 20 Nov 2023 14:54

Facts are facts wm. You're right. ... ... However, many people are not Arab or Jewish, so it doesn't matter as much to them. Some people are simply prejudiced against taking hostages and killing civilians in the name of God. ... The ceasefire was broken on October 7. Israel's massive retaliation should have been the U.S.'s response to hostage takers in North Korea in 1968 and again in Tehran in 1979. Hopefully, Israel's response to Hamas will be a lesson for future generations. ... Hamas threw the Gaza Palestinians under the bus in hopes of starting a holy war. It was a strategic blunder. Now Hamas is complaining that Jordan, Lebanon, and Iran are throwing them under the bus for not being enthusiastic enough in supporting Hamas in its current declared war with Israel. ... The Israelis are a highly talented people. They're especially qualified in facilitating wealth creation and production. The GoPro videos from the Hamas attack show a well-built infrastructure in Israel. Jews have contributed more than greatly to America's prosperity since WWII (and even before). ... During the Czarist days in Russia, residents of thousands of Jewish villages built needed local hospitals. The occasional Pogroms were another strategic blunder in, one sense, that one should not kill the goose that lays golden eggs.

Globalization41.

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 24 Nov 2023 18:50

The idea that the serious "contributors" should have more rights than the common people isn't really that new. The Polish ruling party Sanacja tried to implement it in the thirties. Similar elitism is present in Heinlein's Starship Troopers.
But why the Palestinians should have paid with their land, freedom, and happiness for Jewish contribution to America's prosperity is somewhat mysterious.

Not to mention that Harry S. Truman didn't accept the creation of a single-race Jewish state because of any contributions; he merely very badly needed Jewish votes (but in the end, he didn't need them).
And such illustrious people in his government like George Marshall and George F. Kennan, were against it.

And I wouldn't bother with the "facts." It's propaganda vs propaganda, and the only good propaganda is the effective one.
Gamal Abdel Nasser was massively portrayed as a Nazi assisted by former Nazi scientists trying to gas the Jews again. His soldiers (supposedly) carried Mein Kampf and Protocols of the Elders of Zion with them.
And today, it's no different - they are all "Nazis" with Mein Kampf in hand.

ljadw
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by ljadw » 24 Nov 2023 20:55

'' Palestine '' was not the land of the ''Palestinians '' ,it was a country that had been conquered by the newcomers ,who were called later wrongly ''Palestinians '',with violence ,at the cost of the aborigines .Poland expelled the original inhabitants of East Prussia and Silesia, the Jewish inhabitants of Israel did not expel the non Jews: there are now in the Israel of 1948 more non Jewish people than before 1948 .
Truman was an anti-Semite, as were Marshall and Kennan .

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henryk
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by henryk » 24 Nov 2023 22:38

ljadw wrote:
24 Nov 2023 20:55
'Poland expelled the original inhabitants of East Prussia and Silesia.

Most of the remaining ethnic German inhabitants were removed, after the end of WWII.
In East Prussia the "original" inhabitants were the Prussian Balts whose laguage became extinct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
The bulk of the ancestral lands of the Baltic Old Prussians were enclosed within East Prussia. During the 13th century, the native Prussians were conquered by the crusading Teutonic Knights. After the conquest the indigenous Balts were gradually converted to Christianity. Because of Germanization and colonisation over the following centuries, Germans became the dominant ethnic group, while Masurians and Lithuanians formed minorities. From the 13th century, East Prussia was part of the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights. After the Second Peace of Thorn in 1466 it became a fief of the Kingdom of Poland. In 1525, with the Prussian Homage, the province became the Duchy of Prussia.[2] The Old Prussian language had become extinct by the 17th or early 18th century.[3
In Silesia the "original" inhabitant were Poles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia
Silesia's borders and national affiliation have changed over time, both when it was a hereditary possession of noble houses and after the rise of modern nation-states, resulting in an abundance of castles, especially in the Jelenia Góra valley. The first known states to hold power in Silesia were probably those of Greater Moravia at the end of the 9th century and Bohemia early in the 10th century. In the 10th century, Silesia was incorporated into the early Polish state, and after its fragmentation in the 12th century it formed the Duchy of Silesia, a provincial duchy of Poland. As a result of further fragmentation, Silesia was divided into many duchies, ruled by various lines of the Polish Piast dynasty. In the 14th century, it became a constituent part of the Bohemian Crown Lands under the Holy Roman Empire, which passed to the Austrian Habsburg monarchy in 1526; however, a number of duchies remained under the rule of Polish dukes from the houses of Piast, Jagiellon and Sobieski as formal Bohemian fiefdoms, some until the 17th–18th centuries. As a result of the Silesian Wars, the region was annexed by the German state of Prussia from Austria in 1742.

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 24 Nov 2023 23:23

henryk wrote:
24 Nov 2023 22:38
Most of the remaining ethnic German inhabitants were removed, after the end of WWII.

Even more, the victorious Allies made the decision alone - in contrast with (still democratic at that time) Czechoslovakia, the Czechs expelled all the Sudeten Germans themselves.

At that time communist Poland was just a puppet on Stalin's finger that curtsied and said meekly, "Thank you - you guys are awesome."

ljadw
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by ljadw » 25 Nov 2023 07:37

henryk wrote:
24 Nov 2023 22:38
ljadw wrote:
24 Nov 2023 20:55
'Poland expelled the original inhabitants of East Prussia and Silesia.

Most of the remaining ethnic German inhabitants were removed, after the end of WWII.
In East Prussia the "original" inhabitants were the Prussian Balts whose laguage became extinct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
The bulk of the ancestral lands of the Baltic Old Prussians were enclosed within East Prussia. During the 13th century, the native Prussians were conquered by the crusading Teutonic Knights. After the conquest the indigenous Balts were gradually converted to Christianity. Because of Germanization and colonisation over the following centuries, Germans became the dominant ethnic group, while Masurians and Lithuanians formed minorities. From the 13th century, East Prussia was part of the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights. After the Second Peace of Thorn in 1466 it became a fief of the Kingdom of Poland. In 1525, with the Prussian Homage, the province became the Duchy of Prussia.[2] The Old Prussian language had become extinct by the 17th or early 18th century.[3
In Silesia the "original" inhabitant were Poles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia
Silesia's borders and national affiliation have changed over time, both when it was a hereditary possession of noble houses and after the rise of modern nation-states, resulting in an abundance of castles, especially in the Jelenia Góra valley. The first known states to hold power in Silesia were probably those of Greater Moravia at the end of the 9th century and Bohemia early in the 10th century. In the 10th century, Silesia was incorporated into the early Polish state, and after its fragmentation in the 12th century it formed the Duchy of Silesia, a provincial duchy of Poland. As a result of further fragmentation, Silesia was divided into many duchies, ruled by various lines of the Polish Piast dynasty. In the 14th century, it became a constituent part of the Bohemian Crown Lands under the Holy Roman Empire, which passed to the Austrian Habsburg monarchy in 1526; however, a number of duchies remained under the rule of Polish dukes from the houses of Piast, Jagiellon and Sobieski as formal Bohemian fiefdoms, some until the 17th–18th centuries. As a result of the Silesian Wars, the region was annexed by the German state of Prussia from Austria in 1742.
The great majority of the inhabitants of East Prussia and Silesia in 1939 were Germans .They were removed in 1945 .
The majority of the inhabitants of 1948 Israel were in 1948 Jewish;the non Jewish minority was not removed :there are now more non Jewish people in Israel than in 1948 .
The point is that the Arabs can not claim to possess Israel and can even not claim to be the original inhabitants of Israel,as before them,there were other people living in Israel ,who were removed by the Arabs and who had expelled their predecessors .
It is the same for Silesia that was annexed by Poland in the 10th century ,against the will /without the consent of the population of Silesia .
The so-called Palestinians have taken Palestine by force,the Jews have not taken Palestine by force .
That is the difference .
To live in a country does not make you the rightful possessor of that country as every one has taken over their country by force .Unless you accept the slogan that might makes right .
The Muslims have taken over Egypt by force and oppressed/oppress the original Christian population . This does not make the Muslims the rightful owners of Egypt ,but it does also not give the Christians the right to expel the Muslims .
The situation in Spain is the same , as it is in Ireland, France, Germany,US,Britain,....

Princess Perfume
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by Princess Perfume » 25 Nov 2023 12:29

Take the Spanish cities on the Moroccan coast or French Mayotte. African secular political masturbaiters and Islamo-sexuals demand they be given to Morocco and Comoros respectively, regardless of what the people in them want - but given the choice between two secular European democracies and two third world corrupt Islamic supremacist dictatorships - it not much of a choice -- see also the Falkland Islanders versus a country which is economically the Latino 1923 Weimar Republic.

ljadw
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by ljadw » 25 Nov 2023 15:13

wm wrote:
24 Nov 2023 23:23
henryk wrote:
24 Nov 2023 22:38
Most of the remaining ethnic German inhabitants were removed, after the end of WWII.

Even more, the victorious Allies made the decision alone - in contrast with (still democratic at that time) Czechoslovakia, the Czechs expelled all the Sudeten Germans themselves.

At that time communist Poland was just a puppet on Stalin's finger that curtsied and said meekly, "Thank you - you guys are awesome."
Sikorski wanted East Prussia and Mikolajczyk the other eastern parts of Germany,both were hostile to the USSR ,thus it is not so that the Oder-Neisse border was the work of Stalin only .
4,5 million of Poles had to leave Polish Ukraine after the war and only in the eastern parts of Poland was there any place for them .

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wm
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Re: The Iron Wall

Post by wm » 25 Nov 2023 17:17

Princess Perfume wrote:
25 Nov 2023 12:29
Take the Spanish cities on the Moroccan coast or French Mayotte. African secular political masturbaiters and Islamo-sexuals demand they be given to Morocco and Comoros respectively, regardless of what the people in them want - but given the choice between two secular European democracies and two third world corrupt Islamic supremacist dictatorships - it not much of a choice -- see also the Falkland Islanders versus a country which is economically the Latino 1923 Weimar Republic.

Mayotte was purchased by France in 1841 - that, from the international law point of view, made the land French for perpetuity.
Poland and the Jews acquired territories by international agreement, in both cases proposed and supported by all the great powers - that made it legal for perpetuity.

Alas, there is a difference from the moral point of view.
The Germans had to hand over the territories as punishment for all the numerous acts of aggression, war crimes, and genocides they had committed, especially against Poland, and as a warning to future wanna-be aggressors.
Even more, Poland had to be compensated for the Polish territories annexed by Russia (actually, despite the new lands, communist Poland was 30 percent smaller than pre-WW2).
That makes the transfer of the former German territories just and proper.

On the other hand, the colonization of Palestine was pre-planned at the end of the 19th century when a colonization society (The World Zionist Organization) was created.
Although the colonization proceeded peacefully initially, they eventually resorted to violence, terror, and ethnic cleansing.
Because of that, it's hard not to agree with Yaakov Sharett, a centenarian of impeccable Israeli pedigree:
Israel was born in sin.
This original sin pursues and will pursue us and hang over us.

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