No problem!Korbius wrote:Kocjo, thanks for posting all that info, and sorry for bothering you to search all this stuff.
If there is anything more, that I can provide you, just say the words....
Slovenian war of Independence 1991
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K.Kocjancic
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Kocjo, that was a very weak attack against my patriotism. I'm in Australia because it's a better place to live. Hell, Slovenia is a better place to live than Serbia. That doesn't detract from the fact that Serbia has an excellent army, that could more than mop the floor with Slovenia's armed forces. Besides, I was young when my family moved from Serbia. It wasn't really my choice.
Those statistics you showed still don't answer the fundamental question, do they? So a couple of columns of JNA troops were sent to Slovenia from Croatia. What's your point? A day or so later they were ordered to retreat. We're still talking about troops who were in utter shambles after mass desertions, received curiouser and curiouser orders from territorial command and whose morale was in a bad way. The "Slovenian War of Independence" was a joke.
Don't kid yourself.
Regards,
Sokol
PS. Why are you calling out for Croatians/Macedonians/Bosnians to join the discussion? Do you need reinforcements?
Those statistics you showed still don't answer the fundamental question, do they? So a couple of columns of JNA troops were sent to Slovenia from Croatia. What's your point? A day or so later they were ordered to retreat. We're still talking about troops who were in utter shambles after mass desertions, received curiouser and curiouser orders from territorial command and whose morale was in a bad way. The "Slovenian War of Independence" was a joke.
Don't kid yourself.
Regards,
Sokol
PS. Why are you calling out for Croatians/Macedonians/Bosnians to join the discussion? Do you need reinforcements?
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K.Kocjancic
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- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
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K.Kocjancic
- Member
- Posts: 6788
- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/count ... 097340.stm
1991 - Slovenia, along with Croatia, declares its independence. The Yugoslav federal army intervenes. Slovene forces defend the country. About 100 people killed. The EU brokers a ceasefire. The Yugoslav army withdraws.
Exaggeration
<<<<<<<<<Yes, of course, we were priviliged, Serbia was a big bad monster and the Republics just HAD to illegally break away, when they could have done so legally and avoided a four year war that killed 300,000 people. They HAD to ambush and slaughter hapless JNA garrisons.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sokol, Kocjo with all respect. One of the main reasons for the last balkan wars were outstanding accounts between Serbs and Croats from the WWII and that means the number of victims. 1.700.000 victims and among them 700.000 - 1.000.000 Serbs in Croatian concentration camp Jasenovac was one of the main reasons for revenge. Is the number correct or not no one will ever know; because the estimations vary from 80.000 - 1.000.000; according to the political situation. The numbers of victims was allways very dangerous thing in Balkan. It caused the wars between the future generations.
Therefore the number from the last wars 300.000 deceased is certainly the exaggeration. It can cause new conflicts and revenges in future. The independent commission should find out the real numbers. Otherwise this numbers will go on to next generations and will become truth.
The Slovenia played minor role in conflict 91-95. For sure it would not had entered the adventure in 91 if it hadn't known there were Croats between Slovenians and Serbs. And the major conflict would have been and was there. If the Yu-army would have lounched the large scale attack on the Croatia and Slovenia this would cause the refugee crises in Central Europe (Austria, Italy); and was estimated there would be to 2 mil. of displaced persons. That would had caused the NATO intervention against Yu-army allready in 91. As a matter of fact Ex-Yu had no chances to survive, because of Serb-Croatian impatience. Slovenia had just used historical chance. I am sure Milosevic knew that, therefore he went on second scenario; enlarged Serbia. That's why Slovenia and Croatia were so quickly recognized by Germany; Not because of sentimentality but because of possible refugee crises. Germany wanted to make two new states as international subject as quickly as possible; The refugees would have been than the international problem with possible international intervention; Not just Austrian/German because the majority of them would have been there.
Albanias have recognized that in 1999 therefore they used the tactic; everyone simply left Kosovo towards Albania, Macedonia and Greece. Such large number of refugees destabilised the whole region, therefore NATO had to intervene. The same would had happened in 1991 in North.
Sokol, Kocjo with all respect. One of the main reasons for the last balkan wars were outstanding accounts between Serbs and Croats from the WWII and that means the number of victims. 1.700.000 victims and among them 700.000 - 1.000.000 Serbs in Croatian concentration camp Jasenovac was one of the main reasons for revenge. Is the number correct or not no one will ever know; because the estimations vary from 80.000 - 1.000.000; according to the political situation. The numbers of victims was allways very dangerous thing in Balkan. It caused the wars between the future generations.
Therefore the number from the last wars 300.000 deceased is certainly the exaggeration. It can cause new conflicts and revenges in future. The independent commission should find out the real numbers. Otherwise this numbers will go on to next generations and will become truth.
The Slovenia played minor role in conflict 91-95. For sure it would not had entered the adventure in 91 if it hadn't known there were Croats between Slovenians and Serbs. And the major conflict would have been and was there. If the Yu-army would have lounched the large scale attack on the Croatia and Slovenia this would cause the refugee crises in Central Europe (Austria, Italy); and was estimated there would be to 2 mil. of displaced persons. That would had caused the NATO intervention against Yu-army allready in 91. As a matter of fact Ex-Yu had no chances to survive, because of Serb-Croatian impatience. Slovenia had just used historical chance. I am sure Milosevic knew that, therefore he went on second scenario; enlarged Serbia. That's why Slovenia and Croatia were so quickly recognized by Germany; Not because of sentimentality but because of possible refugee crises. Germany wanted to make two new states as international subject as quickly as possible; The refugees would have been than the international problem with possible international intervention; Not just Austrian/German because the majority of them would have been there.
Albanias have recognized that in 1999 therefore they used the tactic; everyone simply left Kosovo towards Albania, Macedonia and Greece. Such large number of refugees destabilised the whole region, therefore NATO had to intervene. The same would had happened in 1991 in North.
Apology!
>>>>I've explained the reasons for the war and the reasons for why the war went the way it did far too many times to do so again. >>>>
Apology, because I do not know the "real" reasons and why the war went the way it did. But I see you have mastered this subject long time ago. I am glad for your contribution to the world's history objectivity.
>>>>The "Slovenian War of Independence" was a joke<<<<<
Maybe it was in front of Australian TV.
Apology, because I do not know the "real" reasons and why the war went the way it did. But I see you have mastered this subject long time ago. I am glad for your contribution to the world's history objectivity.
>>>>The "Slovenian War of Independence" was a joke<<<<<
Maybe it was in front of Australian TV.
Re: Exaggeration
TM2000 wrote:Albanias have recognized that in 1999 therefore they used the tactic; everyone simply left Kosovo towards Albania, Macedonia and Greece. Such large number of refugees destabilised the whole region, therefore NATO had to intervene. The same would had happened in 1991 in North.
So according to you, a million people just decided to have a mass exodus towards their neighbors? Dang, they surely were organized for such a big event.>>>>>>So according to you, a million people just decided to have a mass exodus towards their neighbors? Dang, they surely were organized for such a big event.>>>>>>>>
It was not excursion for sure but it was an avalanche; The refugees passing the vilages have spread the informations about crimes; so the people run away with them. It is hard to leave so easy the property and homes. Remember there were 2 mil. Albanians on Kosovo. Almost 1 mil. left. They new NATO will do the job and they will come home soon. I am sure about that.
>>>>>>TM, I was in Yugoslavia until 1995 and I often heard the artillery roar in the distance (I lived close to the border with B&H). So don't give me that crap, alright?>>>>>>>>
Sokol, but deep in your heart you new it was roaring of serbian heavy artillery defending the defenceless serbian people in Bosnia.
It was not excursion for sure but it was an avalanche; The refugees passing the vilages have spread the informations about crimes; so the people run away with them. It is hard to leave so easy the property and homes. Remember there were 2 mil. Albanians on Kosovo. Almost 1 mil. left. They new NATO will do the job and they will come home soon. I am sure about that.
>>>>>>TM, I was in Yugoslavia until 1995 and I often heard the artillery roar in the distance (I lived close to the border with B&H). So don't give me that crap, alright?>>>>>>>>
Sokol, but deep in your heart you new it was roaring of serbian heavy artillery defending the defenceless serbian people in Bosnia.
Back to the fray on a subject that I know something about....hehehe
The Slovene war lasted only 10 days because as Kocjo said correctly there were no large Serb minority population centres in Slovenia - any Serbs in Slovenia were scattered and assimilated into the population.
Kocjo was incorrect in saying that the Croats and Bosnians didn't blockade JNA barracks - they did.
The problem for Croatia and Bosnia was that they both had large Serb minority populations concentrated into specific areas because of historical reasons - the Vojna Krajina etc and unlike the Slovenes the Croat and Bosnian TO's were forcibly disarmed by the JNA and their weapons distributed to the local Serb militias (Chetniks) prior to hostilities commencing.
Another reason was that the Serbs had no quarrel with the Slovenes historically. We must remember that much of the "Greater Serbia" nationalist agenda had propaganda and mythology dependent upon the genocide carried out upon the Serbian nation in WWII by the Ustasha (I use the English spelling as I do for Chetnik) in NDH (The Independent State of Croatia) which embraced modern day Croatia, Vojvodina, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Sandjak during the period 1941-45. Also Slovenia had no discernible link in Serbian national thinking with the Battle of Kosovo in 1389.
Going back to the blockades of JNA bases in Croatia and Bosnia.
Unlike in Slovenia where the TO blockaded, the bases in Croatia were blockaded by HOS (Hrvatske Snage Odbrane - Croatian Defence Forces), the paramilitary wing of the fascist HSP (Hrvatska Stranka Prava - Croatian Rights Party) a throwback to the Ustasa, and in Bosnia Patriotska Liga (Patriotic League) nicknamed "Zelenih Beretke" (The Green Berets) the forerunner of the Bosnian Army formed secretly prior to the war.
In Croatia HOS were very successful in blockading JNA bases and the weapons seized were given to the fledgling Croatian National Guard (ZNG) and Croatian Army (Hvratska Vojska - HV). In Bosnia there was a strange and, to this day, unexplained incident.
The Green Berets blockaded the Marshal Tito barracks in Sarajevo but meanwhile Alija Izetbegovic, the president of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina got himself "captured" by Bosnian Serb forces at Sarajevo Airport. In return for his release the JNA were allowed to leave Marshal Tito barracks with their weapons. Then they were assimilated in VRS (Vojska Republika Srpska) the Bosnian Serb Army. There is much speculation now as to what was done and agreed behind the scenes between Karadzic and Izetbegovic. Taken that Izetbegovic was Bosnia's de facto political leader and commander-in-chief then it comes as a surprise that he was released. Even stranger was his subsequent presidential order to PL BiH and other forces loyal to the republic that the JNA should not be molested and allowed to go on their way without let or hinderance.
Unfortunately we shall never know, because of Bosnian Muslim mythology surrounding Izetbegovic, the full extent of his treason against the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and what deals were done quietly behind the scenes between him and Karadzic vis-a-vis the dividing up of Bosnia.
It comes as no surprise to me however, that Karadzic has not been arrested and sent to the Hague Tribunal. He knows too much about Izetbegovic's role and the role of many leading statesmen in the destruction of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
The Slovene war lasted only 10 days because as Kocjo said correctly there were no large Serb minority population centres in Slovenia - any Serbs in Slovenia were scattered and assimilated into the population.
Kocjo was incorrect in saying that the Croats and Bosnians didn't blockade JNA barracks - they did.
The problem for Croatia and Bosnia was that they both had large Serb minority populations concentrated into specific areas because of historical reasons - the Vojna Krajina etc and unlike the Slovenes the Croat and Bosnian TO's were forcibly disarmed by the JNA and their weapons distributed to the local Serb militias (Chetniks) prior to hostilities commencing.
Another reason was that the Serbs had no quarrel with the Slovenes historically. We must remember that much of the "Greater Serbia" nationalist agenda had propaganda and mythology dependent upon the genocide carried out upon the Serbian nation in WWII by the Ustasha (I use the English spelling as I do for Chetnik) in NDH (The Independent State of Croatia) which embraced modern day Croatia, Vojvodina, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Sandjak during the period 1941-45. Also Slovenia had no discernible link in Serbian national thinking with the Battle of Kosovo in 1389.
Going back to the blockades of JNA bases in Croatia and Bosnia.
Unlike in Slovenia where the TO blockaded, the bases in Croatia were blockaded by HOS (Hrvatske Snage Odbrane - Croatian Defence Forces), the paramilitary wing of the fascist HSP (Hrvatska Stranka Prava - Croatian Rights Party) a throwback to the Ustasa, and in Bosnia Patriotska Liga (Patriotic League) nicknamed "Zelenih Beretke" (The Green Berets) the forerunner of the Bosnian Army formed secretly prior to the war.
In Croatia HOS were very successful in blockading JNA bases and the weapons seized were given to the fledgling Croatian National Guard (ZNG) and Croatian Army (Hvratska Vojska - HV). In Bosnia there was a strange and, to this day, unexplained incident.
The Green Berets blockaded the Marshal Tito barracks in Sarajevo but meanwhile Alija Izetbegovic, the president of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina got himself "captured" by Bosnian Serb forces at Sarajevo Airport. In return for his release the JNA were allowed to leave Marshal Tito barracks with their weapons. Then they were assimilated in VRS (Vojska Republika Srpska) the Bosnian Serb Army. There is much speculation now as to what was done and agreed behind the scenes between Karadzic and Izetbegovic. Taken that Izetbegovic was Bosnia's de facto political leader and commander-in-chief then it comes as a surprise that he was released. Even stranger was his subsequent presidential order to PL BiH and other forces loyal to the republic that the JNA should not be molested and allowed to go on their way without let or hinderance.
Unfortunately we shall never know, because of Bosnian Muslim mythology surrounding Izetbegovic, the full extent of his treason against the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and what deals were done quietly behind the scenes between him and Karadzic vis-a-vis the dividing up of Bosnia.
It comes as no surprise to me however, that Karadzic has not been arrested and sent to the Hague Tribunal. He knows too much about Izetbegovic's role and the role of many leading statesmen in the destruction of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
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K.Kocjancic
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- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
I found one web-pages, where is written that Slovenia and Slovenian people are responsable for "destroying" Yugoslavia. 
http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiv ... isma.shtml
Go to title: "Vlast je slast ili prokletstvo".
http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiv ... isma.shtml
Go to title: "Vlast je slast ili prokletstvo".