Obscure Wars

Discussions on other historical eras.
cptstennes
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Osscure wars

#16

Post by cptstennes » 28 Aug 2002, 17:48

There are some very interesting wars which have received little attention. I note that in the 20's the Civil Wars in China killed millions, largely thru famine. Extending into the 30's, they involved some fabulous characters such as General Ma, "Big Horse, who was described in Sven Hedin's book "The Flight of Big Horse" White Russian mercenaries were a factor in the wars in the North . They are well described in several books of the time.
There was also the US invasion of Haiti and the very interesting US Marine campaign there in the, then, forested hills of the interior. I stayed in a hotel built as a hospital by the Marines in Port au Prince. The Oloffsen.
Oddly, Roehm served as a Bolivian mercenary in the Gran Chaco War which the Bolivians lost, despite the presence of many German mercenaries. I have never been able to find much out about Roehm's service there tho I have read his autobiography.
You might also look at D'Annunzio's occupation of Fiume, which is a very strange episode and a direct futurist precursor of the Fascist march on Rome. Regards, F.

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Victor
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#17

Post by Victor » 28 Aug 2002, 21:51

Weyler wrote:does anybody know anything about the war between Poland an Cekoeslovensko? and between Hungary and CzechSlovakia?
If I know Well, after 1918, Hungary was in war in Roumania and Czech Slovakia and also the civil war. Too much war!
The Romanian-Hungarian conflivt was in 1919, not 1918. There were also Czechs and Serbs involved, but on a smaller scale. In 1918-20 there were skirmishes between Romanian and Bolshevik forces, but that can't be called a real war.


Durand
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Actions in the Baltic as a Subset of the Russian Civil War

#18

Post by Durand » 28 Aug 2002, 22:18

Hallo,

You might also consider military activities in the Baltic in 1918 and 1919. Under article XII of the Armistice German forces were to stay in the area until such time as the Allies deemed it suitable for the German forces to return to Germany. The German Army melted away and was replaced by Freikorps units and local militia in Latvia in 1919. The FK and local militia were successful against the weak Bolshevik forces. In the course of their operations, the FK tried to overthrow the government of the newly independent Latvia and murdered 3,000 civilians in Riga.

Under Allied pressure, the German government ordered the Freikorps home to Germany, but they refused and became part of the Western Russian army, an anti-bolshevist formation. In retaliation, the Allies established a blockade of the Baltic area, provided the artillery support from naval guns in the defense of Riga, and provided arms and supplies to Latvia's national troops. By the end of the year, the FK was severely weakened, surrounded, and close to complete destruction. In November, the Sturmabteilung Rossbach, an FK unit which had been integrated with the 37.Jägerbataillon, on it's own authority marched 1000 km into Latvia, defeated a Latvian force, and rescued the remains of the Freikorps in Latvia. All the Freikorps then marched back and crossed the German frontier on December 13.

J.D.

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#19

Post by Ken Jasper » 28 Aug 2002, 22:21

There was the Ilinden (Macedonia) uprising against the Ottoman Empire in 1903. This small war was commemorated in 1951 by Tito's regieme in Yugoslavia. A large silver commemorative badge was awarded to survivors of the uprising. It is a rare award for an obscure war..

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Andy H
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#20

Post by Andy H » 15 Sep 2002, 21:55

British history is littered with them. I'll have to dig an old book out but one was named Lt...... Little Finger (Roughly)

:D Andy from the Shire

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Brannik
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#21

Post by Brannik » 27 Sep 2002, 04:55

[quote]The Soviets wanted that territory, and the Poles put up a fierce fight.

Well,I am not sure I would define it like that.The Soviets were following Trotsky's ideas about the "Permanent Revolution" and were just expanding Bolshevization with the Soviet Union of the World being the objective.

[quote]There was the Ilinden (Macedonia) uprising against the Ottoman Empire in 1903. This small war was commemorated in 1951 by Tito's regieme in Yugoslavia. A large silver commemorative badge was awarded to survivors of the uprising. It is a rare award for an obscure war..

The Ilinden Uprising was staged by the IMRO(Internal Mecedonian Revolutionary Organization),a right wing nationalist militia of the Macedonian Bulgarians.It was drowned in blood by the Turks and it is still commemorated today in both Bulgaria and Macedonia,although both sides have their diametrically opposed stories.I am truly amazed to hear that Tito allowed such a thing,commemorating the IMRO would be the same to him as commemorating the Ustashi,they were enemies to the death.

Also,there was a small scale Greek invasion of Bulgaria in October of 1925,but it was repulsed bu an unlikely source-the UN.
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Gwynn Compton
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#22

Post by Gwynn Compton » 28 Sep 2002, 10:45

What information do people have on the Polish-German border conflicts of 1919-1920? It's always been my impression that perhaps Poland was a far more militant state than has been suggested in most history texts.

Gwynn

Durand
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#23

Post by Durand » 30 Sep 2002, 21:11

Hallo Gwynn,

The German-Polish border dispute lasted from the end of 1918 to 1922. The areas affected were East and West Prussia, Posen, and Upper Silesia. These regions were wracked by political tension and sporadic fighting. The population in each area was ethnically mixed. Polish nationalists, sensing a power vacuum left by a weakened Germany army, organized quickly into local militias. Their goal was to control these territories before the Allied powers made final decisions regarding the disposition of these regions.

The strongest and most important of the Polish militias was Polish Military Organization or Polska Organizacja Wojskowa (POW). POW is estimated to have had 14,000 and 22,000 members, most armed, by the spring of 1919. The members were of all political persuasions whose only goal was to fight the Germans and force them from the disputed territories. The POW was in contact with Jozef Pilsudski in Warsaw. While the fight was carried mainly by POW in the earlier years, at the time of the Third Silesian Uprising beginning in May 1921 several Polish army battalions and armored trains were involved.

On the German side, the fight was carried mainly by local ethnic German militia groups and Freikorps units. What was left of the regular German army was involved in the defense of the Posen area in December 1918, but the German government ordered the army to withdraw to the area around Berlin in anticipation of a coup by the Spartacists. The German High Command authorized the raising of militias and FK units to fill the gap.

In February 1919, the FK units and militia went on the offensive and Chelmno was captured by Sturmabteilung Rossbach (led by Gerhard Rossbach). After several days, Allied authorities ordered the Berlin government to halt the offensives in the Posen area, West Prussia and Upper Silesia. The FK and militias stopped and returned to their departure points.

With the signing of the Versailles Treaty some of these areas settled down. Posen and the Danzig Corridor were given to Poland. Plebiscites were ordered to be held in East Prussia and Upper Silesia to determine their respective national allegiances. East Prussia voted in 1920 to remain German.

However, tensions continued and there were numerous acts of sabotage in Upper Silesia throughout the spring and summer of 1919. On August 16, 1919, POW launched a surprise offensive and gained control of Upper Silesia. On August 18, FK units, reinforced during the spring by more units, including Ehrhardt Brigade and von Löwenfeld's III. Marine Brigade, counterattacked and recaptured all of the positions taken by POW forces within 5 days.

In February 1920, an Allied Commission arrived in Upper Silesia to prepare for the plebiscite and Allied troops (French, Italian, and British) were stationed there to maintain order. The vote was held in March 1920 and the result was 60 percent in favor of remaining with Germany. The Allied Commission then had to decide where to fix the boundaries. The Allies stumbled and fumbled on this issue. With no decision in sight by the spring of 1921, POW began preparing for an insurrection.

POW went on the offensive on May 2, 1921. By May 5th, POW controlled most of Upper Silesia. The Allied troops, with the exception of an initial attempt by the Italians, did nothing to stop POW forces. The Berlin government did not order the Reichswehr to intervene, but rather called on the Allied Powers to stop POW and to honor the results of the plebiscite. In the meantime, FK units, which had been officially disbanded after the Kapp Putsch during the spring of 1920, independently reformed and without official or public government orders rushed to Upper Silesia to help the local militias. The FK units stabilized a line from the Polish border to the city of Oppeln and along the Oder river down through Cosel and Ratisbor. General Karl Höfer was in overall command of the FK formations. On May 21, 1919, a task force under the command of General Bernhard von Hülsen attacked the Annaberg hill on the east side of the Oder. It was a prominent point in the Oder Valley and was held by the Poles. It was also the site of a religious sanctuary of importance to the Silesian Germans. Von Hülsen's attack was successful. It was proclaimed as the first German victory since 1918. A Polish counterattack was repulsed the next day. On May 24, the Berlin government announced that it was forbidden to recruit volunteers for the fighting in Upper Silesia and threatened penalties for anyone caught trying to organize FK units. The Berlin government took this position in response to Allied threats to occupy the Ruhr if the FK units in Upper Silesia were not stopped. Despite the high politics, von Hülsen launched another attack in early June and again defeated the Poles. All along the front, the FK units slowly pushed the Poles back. Finally, in late July 1921. Allied troops became involved and separated the POW and FK forces. The Allied Commission again took control of the region.

This foregoing is only a rough outline of a complicated series of events. You may wish to consider reading the following titles:

Vanguard of Nazism by Robert G.L. Waite;
The German Freikorps, 1918-1923 by Carlos Jurado;
National Identity and Weimar Germany: Upper Silesia and the Eastern Border, 1918-1922 by T. Hunt Tooley.

There are also two German language websites you may wish to visit:

http://www.republikasilesia.com/silesia ... k/Text.htm

http://www.reitergenosten.de/hauptseite.htm

If you work your way through the second site, you will find a picture of the Annaberg memorial and some pictures of the FK recruiting posters.


Regards,

J.D.

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Andy
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#24

Post by Andy » 01 Oct 2002, 02:52

First and Second Sino-Japanese Wars are not very well known where I live. Also the Chinese Civil War 1946 - 1949. I think there have been tons of wars in Africa over the years and I think there are still some going on right now. Civil Wars in Central America in the 70s and 80s. I think there were some battles between the Soviet Union and Japan in 1939 which the Soviets under Zhukov whipped the Japanese.

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johnny_bi
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#25

Post by johnny_bi » 01 Oct 2002, 07:33

Don't forget about romanian-hungarian armed conflict 1918-1919 when romanians removed the communist regim of Bella Kun from Hungary (Hungary had supposed to become the second soviet state) .

BI

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johnny_bi
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#26

Post by johnny_bi » 01 Oct 2002, 07:44

Don't forget about romanian-hungarian armed conflict 1918-1919 when romanians removed the communist regim of Bella Kun from Hungary (Hungary had supposed to become the second soviet state) .

BI

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Korbius
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#27

Post by Korbius » 14 Oct 2002, 21:38

Well, Albania was invaded temporarily by Italy, Montenegro and Greece after WWI, and it took until 1924 for them to be repulsed back where they came from.

William Wagner
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#28

Post by William Wagner » 26 Oct 2002, 20:18

I don't think that there has even been a day in which there has not been a war on this planet

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#29

Post by rodent » 27 Oct 2002, 00:54

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Balkan wars. They were fairly large and significant, but overshadowed by WW1. The first one began in 1912 with a Balkan coalition attacking The Ottoman Empire and conquering most of its European territory and the second one was in 1913 when everyone ganged up against Bulgaria and won some territory at its expense. That's why it joined the Central Powers in WW1.
The two wars caused roughly 200 000 deaths.

William Wagner
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#30

Post by William Wagner » 27 Oct 2002, 15:57

the reason it is considered an obscure war is due to the fact that very few people actually care about those countries . They have very little influence in our world. Just like the bloody wars in Africa. Casualties do not make a war significant, world affect of the war is what makes it significant

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