Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

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dcmatkins
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by dcmatkins » 30 Sep 2010 21:09

Living and growing up in the UK during the 70/80s. The general perception based upon propaganda. Was that the Russians/WP were some massive armed camp. With hundreds of thousands of tanks and heavily armoured infantry. Just waiting to invade Western Europe.

After talking to people from Eastern Europe it seems they were fed the same rubbish about the West.

Communism became outdated and the world moved forward since WW2. How much did the Russians spend on military to try and keep up with Reagans Star Wars policy. Where did all its military might get it in reality,
The true winners of the cold war were in fact China. With American investment initially, it has gone on to be the workshop of the world.

Id recommed the book about the the Cold War by Gladdis.

South
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by South » 01 Oct 2010 07:04

Good morning DC Matkins,

When living and growing up in the UK during the 70/80s was Holy Loch a Club Med site?

The West was not a massive armed camp?!

In reply to "where did all its[Russians] military might get it in reality,";

In reality, the Soviet Union, and now Russia, has one of the world's most powerful military forces that can still be used to influence events and initiate policy.

E=MC2


Warm regards,

Bob

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Robert Rojas
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RE: THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR OF EUROPEAN LIBERATION

Post by Robert Rojas » 05 Oct 2010 06:21

Greetings to both brother Christopher Perrien and the community as a whole. Howdy Chris! Well sir, in reference to your installment of Wednesday - September 29, 2010 - 4:51pm, old Uncle Bob was (and is) curious if you might be misinformed about the historical time period gravitating around the Simulations Publications Incorporated game product entitled as N.A.T.O.? The original incarnation of N.A.T.O. was published in year 1973 and as far as I am personally aware, there were no substantive upgrades to the game product after its year 1973 debut. Is it possible that you might be confusing N.A.T.O. with another Simulations Publications Incorporated game product entitled as FULDA GAP: The First Battle Of The Next War which was published in year 1977? Incidentally, the N.A.T.O. game product is conducted at the DIVISION and BRIGADE level while the FULDA GAP game product is conducted at the BRIGADE and REGIMENT level. Oh, and by the way, old yours truly is also the proud owner of both of these now vinatge products from the once proud and mighty S.P.I. organization. On a parting note, as the often hard pressed Western Alliance player within the N.A.T.O. game product, the course of battle goes nuclear fairly quickly if I am unable to blunt and hold the Warsaw Pact juggernaut on the western bank of the Weser River. It's just a sobering observation. Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this Cold War topic from yesteryear - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in the Magnolia State of Mississippi.

Best Regards From My Side Of The Figuaritve Tripwire,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Robert Rojas
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RE: In The Shadow Of The Bear.

Post by Robert Rojas » 05 Oct 2010 07:10

Greetings to both citizen D.C. Matkins and the community as a whole. Well sir, in light of your installment of Thursday - September 30, 2010 - 9:09pm, old Uncle Bob would like to recommend the following work of supplemental literature for your perusal. The literary work in question is entitled as THE COLD WAR: A Military History. The author is David Miller and the publisher is the Saint Martin's Press in New York City. The year of publication is 1999 and the ISBN is 0-312-24183-6. David Miller's work is essentially a nuts and bolts sort of read without delving into partisan ideological matters. I hope you find David Miller's technical work of relevant interest to your historical pursuits. ENJOY! Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this topic from yesteryear - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everybody else.

Best Regards From The Upstart Colonies,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 05 Oct 2010 09:29

Hey Robert,

Well it took a ittle searching but I figured out the games I referenced were made by Victory games , a company formed after SPI dissolved inthe early 80's by some of SPI's designers. The game I still have in my possession is Nato:The Next War in Europe(1983), which is a revised/updated version of the original Nato (SPI)game. It says as much in the designers notes.

Also my other mentioned cold-war game too, 6th Fleet is another Victory game,

Sorry for the confusion, A zillion years ago I did have a copy of Nato/SPI, god only knows where it went. I probably have only 15-20 old wargames, I used to have about 120, IIRC.

regards,
Chris I

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Attrition
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by Attrition » 05 Oct 2010 10:15

I thought that the Soviet war pan was to build a doomsday machine? There was a documentary about it called Dr Strangelove.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR OF EUROPEAN LIBERATION

Post by Robert Rojas » 07 Oct 2010 05:06

Greetings to both brother Christopher Perrien and the community as a whole. Howdy Chris! Well sir, in reference to your installment of Tuesday - October 05, 2010 - 9:29am, old Uncle Bob would like to convey his appreciation for your timely clarification regarding the concise differentiation between the Simulations Publications Incorporated gaming product known as N.A.T.O. (publishing year 1973) and the Simulations Publications Incorporated gaming product known as NEXT WAR: Modern Conflict In Europe (original publishing year 1978). And yes, both of these respective game products are light years apart with their technical differences. Oh, and by the way, I am also the proud owner of the NEXT WAR game product from year 1978. Incidentally, I have a rather sneaking suspicion that the both of us own OR have owned many of the very same old fashioned board game products from EITHER years OR now decades past. Finally, like yourself, I am also the proud owner of Victory Game products. My personal favorite is THE CIVIL WAR 1861-1865. Now you know! It is always both surprising and refreshing to come across an actual or former old fashioned board wargamer within the confines of the neighborhood-at-large. As the old and battered adage goes, truth is stranger than fiction. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in the Magnolia State of Mississippi.

Best Regards From My Side Of The Figurative Tripwire,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-)
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 07 Oct 2010 05:47

I think Imight have played SPI's Civil War once but I am wondering if that is the correct title to the game you are refering.. I was far more impressed by Avalon Hill's Gettysburg. The tournament version could be used for minature combat. The Immediate level was a helluva a battle on the board though.

Sand-table warfare, I grew to like better than boardgames, I started at Chainmail rules and went all the way though to War-hammer, and in the interim I designed a few of my own, mostly based on either a civl war format or Hammer's Slammers.

Strange though as to AV's Gettysburg game , because of it, I ended up playing Sid Mier's Civil War and also Waterloo, and they spoiled me, as to how the AI of those games worked. I have fought few human opponents that can equal what-ever Sid Mier cooked up for his Gettyburg's game. I know not what to make of it, but I have seen nothing like it since. Perhaps because it was all "linear' combat , or perhaps it has been adopted as a percusor program to whatever the DoD is using now .

All I can say is if you want to try AV's Gettyburg as a play by mail, I'll buy a copy and we can try it. Or maybe Tactics II 8-) , I think I got a copy of that.

I'm not really a fan of Nato:the next war in Europe, I brought it up as a good primer to the war situation in the early 80's as it had an accurate Order of Battle in the context of this topic.

Perhaps there are other games you might want to play by mail or e-mail(pm me). I haven't fought anyone in a real war-game(non-computer) in a very Long time.

Chris

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Mein Fuhrer, I Can Walk!

Post by Robert Rojas » 07 Oct 2010 06:44

Greetings to both citizen "Attrition" and the community as a whole. Well sir, in respect to your installment of Tuesday - October 05, 2010 - 10:15am, unless you are attempting to interject your own unique brand of tongue-in-cheek humor into this thread, old Uncle Bob would be remiss if you were not duly informed about the actual nature of the film entitled as DOCTOR STRANGELOVE. Ostensibly, the celluloid epic commonly known as DOCTOR STRANGELOVE was NOT a documentary as you might surmise, BUT, in fact, a dark parody often mocking the rationale of the ongoing COLD WAR confrontation between the United States of America and the then Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as it existed circa year 1964. The full title of this classic film is "Doctor Strangelove or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb". Despite its now vintage quality, this uproarious Stanley Kubrick film remains a COLD WAR cult masterpiece to this very day. When the time and financial resources avail themselves, you might consider acquiring the DOCTOR STRANGELOVE film for your own perusal and edification. ENJOY! Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. In anycase, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everybody else.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :wink: 8-)
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Attrition
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by Attrition » 07 Oct 2010 08:59

I was joking but with serious intent. I decided that the 'Cold War' was a fraud in the 1970s, since then I haven't seen anything to prompt a change of mind.

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Re:

Post by Wilhelm_Klave » 16 Nov 2010 00:34

Acolyte wrote:Is the current Polish government saying that the Polish army would have been "unwilling" to fight the West Germans if NATO attacked the Warsaw Pact in 1979? Give me a break.


The army as a structure would do as the Warsaw Pact decided. Individual soldiers and lower-echelon commanders would be a different kettle of fish.
Of course the morale and altitude of the polish soldier would have depended on many factors - for example if NATO used nuclear weapons against polish cities, then IMHO the polish soldier would fight with grim determination and show little mercy to ennemy combatants. However in a purely conventional conflict, especially one in which the polish divisions perceived use would have been as cannon fodder, many soldiers would desert or surrender to the NATO units. Remember that many lower echelon commanders were reservists, often privately very critical of the communist system and hostile to the soviets. Under the right circumstances entire companies or even battalions might have surrendered or even turned sides if NATO presented them with a reasonable political alternative.

soldat_m56 wrote:Anyone have any plans for non-European fronts of the war? (e.g. America and Asia) Did the Soviets have any designs on Alaska?


None, other than maybe striking the harbors and airfields with the strategic airforce bombers, or long range missiles. That is of course as long as we are speaking about a war without the use of strategic nuclear weapons. If strategic nuclear weapons would have been used, I assume several military targets in Alaska would have been bombed.

Pavel Novak
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by Pavel Novak » 25 Nov 2010 21:26

Hi
As for Czechoslovak People's army it can be said that high positioned commanders would be loyal to communist cause in 80s as it is apparent from interviews with various czechoslovak generals from that period. Lower positioned officers and individual soldiers is however something different and no one really knows answer.

Despite efforts to create NATO vs WP games based on real orbats, after rewieving Czechoslovak War Plans from period 70s-80s I can say that all WP orbats created by fans involving Czechoslovak army in that period are wrong as Czechoslovak war organisation is significantly different from peace organization. Main problem is that Czechoslovak war Armies had different divisional composition than in peacetime and this is further complicated by activating stored units - according to war plan from 1986 Czechoslovakia would raise 15 tank and motor-rifle divisions and 3 reserve tank and motor-rifle divisions. Also according to this plan soviet CGF would be transformed to complete Army and attack on West Germany from Czechoslovak territory would be conducted by 3 armies (15 divisions - not counting replacement reserves) from two Fronts in the first wave with another soviet forces coming from the USSR as the second wave. It is also interesting that Czechoslovak forces were positioned in that way that they shoud face only West German units in the initial phase. What I really lacks however is Soviet war organisation of Fronts as in Czechoslovak plans are described only own Front and neighbouring Fronts.

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Attrition
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Re: Soviet war plans vs. NATO 1956 - 1989. Anybody knows?

Post by Attrition » 01 Apr 2011 21:14

Attrition wrote:I was joking but with serious intent. I decided that the 'Cold War' was a fraud in the 1970s, since then I haven't seen anything to prompt a change of mind.


http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/TPL_Essay7_2.9.11.pdf This tends to support the fraud view of the Cold War.

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