Tiger II vs modern tanks

[Der Dichter spricht]

This is just a silly but interesting question (I think). How well would a Pzkpfw VI Tiger II fare against modern tanks like the Abrams, Leopard, Merkava, etc? I would say that againts 60s-era tanks it would hold its own, but not against modern MBTs.
I´m looking forward to hearing your opinions.

[Acolyte]

Maybe good for target practice because of its size.

[rick vb]

You might want to check out this topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=55231 . I dont think a Tiger II would stand a chance against modern MBT's. Abrams have a layer of depleted uranium armour that is 2.5 denser than steel and fire depleted uranium 'sabot' darts. They also have excellent thermol and night vision optics and can shoot acurately going 40mph. M1's didnt have any trouble with Russian T-55's and T-72's in operation desert storm so I dont think that a 60 year old Tiger II would be a problem. I dont know too much about other modern MBT's but British Challenger tanks have the longest recorded tank to tank kill in history (almost 3 miles I think) on a T-55 so they probably could take out a Tiger II before they ever see them.

[Karl234]

For this fictional question you need to equip the Tiger with a modern "Feuerleitanlage".
For sure a 88mm hit will bring a moderm MBT some damage.

[nondescript handle]

[...] For sure a 88mm hit will bring a moderm MBT some damage.

You can annoy MBT with all kinds of non-armour-piercing guns by destroying the optics or other non-armoured parts.

But the 88mm KwK 36 (L/56) could pierce approximately 100mm of homogenious steel, modern MBTs have armour equivalents of 900 to 1000mm against kinetic projectiles.

Regards
Mark

[Panzerfaust XxX]

The Pzkpfw Tiger II was a outstanding tank in WWII. However I think the weapon is hopelessly outdated by today's MBT's. Our modern M1 Abrams had no problem dealing with the T-72s and the other old Soviet designs. The Tiger II did not have the computer systems today's tanks have thus putting it in a hopeless battle.

[SiG I]

Perhaps the question should be asked differently. When did german tanks become obsolete? I mean, T-34 and Sherman were used for decades after the end of ww2. I was allways curious for how long then did German designs such as TigerII of Panther still remain usefull.

[Karl234]

In a german forum was a discussion about a TigerII vs. Leopard2. The result was that the Leopard2 will shot through the TigerII and the shell will come out and penetrate the next TigerII who is standing behind the first TigerII.

The last 20 years was no war where actual MBT`s come together. It was always that one tank type was a lot of evolution steps behind.

[DIREWOLF75]

[...] For sure a 88mm hit will bring a moderm MBT some damage.

You can annoy MBT with all kinds of non-armour-piercing guns by destroying the optics or other non-armoured parts.

But the 88mm KwK 36 (L/56) could pierce approximately 100mm of homogenious steel, modern MBTs have armour equivalents of 900 to 1000mm against kinetic projectiles.

Regards
Mark

Except of course the Tiger II has the 88L71 gun and the Tiger I was the one with the 88L56... :roll:


Back on topic, Tiger II vs any of todays MBTs, minimal chance of winning, it would need the best of luck, skill and probably total surprise and a side or rear shot.
If we go one or two generations backwards however it probably gets a bit better. Vs a late M60 or T-72 it might start having some chance, vs an early M60, Centurion or T-62 and earlier chances would start to look other than suicidal.
But then of course, comes the annoying part, its probably cheaper to have 2 or more of the latter MBTs running than a single Tiger II.

[General Patton]

Also, we are forgetting a huge factor; movement. Tiger IIs not only would have huge firepower and protection disadvantages, but modern MBTs are immensely superior in speed and maneuverability. Tigers traveled extremely slow (35-42/14-30 km/h for on/off road respectively; a Leopard 2 travels twice that fast, has a faster moving turret, and is much more manevuerable, all huge advantages in combat. In addition, target aquisition and engagement systems on modern MBTs are beyond superior; the M1A1 engaged tanks in Gulf 1 at night ranges that Tiger II couldn't dream of attaining during the day. Also, you must factor in the advancement of the DU shells used in the M1 series; even the HEAT rounds in tanks would go through the plain steel of Tiger II like butter. Even with a far superior crew, a perfect situation, and an ambush, a Tiger II would have to hit a very small small target at very close range with the best angles to kill a modern MBT. In a normal engagement with equal crews, only food, ammo and fuel would limit the destructive capabilities of a modern MBT in an egagement against Tiger II adversaries.

[Der Dichter spricht]

Perhaps the question should be asked differently. When did german tanks become obsolete?

SiG I rephrased my question perfectly.

Now, what about a Tiger II against an M48 Patton, or anything in its class? Wouldn it stand a chance?

[Karl234]

A better question to discuss is what will happen if a TigerII shot on a still standing modern MBT. Only for testing the armour.

[Bismarck totenkopf]

I believe the Tiger II would have very good chances against a modern tank. Imagine the situation: The commander of the Leopard stops and watches in awe with his eyes wide open. "Oh my God ! That's a German WW2 Tiger II !! It's very rare! And in pristine and working condition!! Let me get my camera..."
In the meanwhile the foxy comander of the German antique finds all the time in the world to approach to 50m and fire a few rounds at the Leopards engine. Game over!

[DIREWOLF75]

Maybe paint it pink to add to the "photo-op" feeling?

[Phaing]

IMHO, the TIger II would have been a significant threat on the battlefield well into the 1970s, before Chobham armor and efficient ATGMs became common.

The competition would have been T-62s, Centurions, M-48 and M-60s.
The T-10, Conqueror and the US super-heavy would have had a mobility advantage, unless the logical step of upgrading the Tiger's engine and transmission was taken.

In the 3rd World, where almost all of the Cold Wars fighting took place, it would have been a killer. Recall that Tanzania's invasion of Uganda to overthrow Idi Amin took place in the late 1970s, and was lead by a T-54 escorted by a wheezing pair of T-34s.
The frontal armor of the T-54 was, interestingly, about 10mm more than the max penetration of the 88mm gun.... but only on the turret, and only the front facing. The rest of it, no so much.