Rumanian-Hungarian armed conflict in 1918-1919

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Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 25 Mar 2002 19:54

Sorry to interrupt the discussion on ww2 but taking in consideration the warm relationships between Ro and Hu , does any of you remember what happened in 1919 when the Romanian Flag waved above the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest...or am I wrong?

MagyarCrusader
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Post by MagyarCrusader » 26 Mar 2002 09:24

Rommel wrote:Sorry to interrupt the discussion on ww2 but taking in consideration the warm relationships between Ro and Hu , does any of you remember what happened in 1919 when the Romanian Flag waved above the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest...or am I wrong?


Thats what happens when a country surrenders to Wilson's "Self-Determination." The thieves invade you AFTER you lay down arms. How honorable. :roll:

Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 26 Mar 2002 12:20

I would rather see the Romanian army as a liberating army for Hungary at that moment...and anyway we had to take back Transylvania which is undoubtely Romanian land..

IAR80
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re

Post by IAR80 » 26 Mar 2002 18:49

Romania was in fact urged by the westerners to do their dirty work and do their part to clean up Europe of totalitarism, which Hungarians were, so here they were the bad guys, or are you suggeting that everything hungarian is noble, even dictatorship???

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DenesBernad
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Post by DenesBernad » 26 Mar 2002 20:24

Rommel wrote: "1919 when the Romanian Flag waved above the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest..."
Rommel (et al.), what are your proofs that the Rumanian flag indeed waved on the Hungarian Parliament in Budapest in 1919? Any contemporary photo, perhaps?

Just a side note: the colours of Budapest City's flag were - and still are - red-yellow-blue (horizontally aligned, though). If you visit the city, you can see these colours flying all over Budapest.

Finally, with the same logic you displayed, I could say that the Hungarian flag waved over Bucharest in 1916-1918, but this approach would be rather stupid (from my part)...

Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 26 Mar 2002 20:29

yes that approach would be rather stupid...Romania was occupied mostly by Germans ,Austro Hungarians were only the allied....and you can t deny Romania in 1919 conqured Budapest...and if want to see why read what IAR8o wrote...as for photos as I am not in Romania at the moment I can t have access to my files and information...and about the flag you can t possibly mistake horizontal stripes by vertical ones.Best regards

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DenesBernad
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Post by DenesBernad » 26 Mar 2002 20:42

I wasn't aware of the "Austro Hungarian" ethnicity (would it be similar to Czechoslovak or Yugoslav ethnicity?).
As far as I know, troops of the Austro-Hungarian Army were made up by ethnic Austrians, Hungarians, etc., even Rumanians. I know that there were units with Hungarian majority stationed in Bucharest in 1916-1918. For the record, besides them and Germans, there were also Bulgarians, Turks, etc.

As for the orientation of the colours on the Rumanian Kingdom's flag in the 1910s, if you check contemporary photos - including the events at Blaj, on December 1, 1918, of which colour(ized) photos are also available - you can see that there were flags with both orientations, horizontal and vertical.

Dénes

Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 26 Mar 2002 20:51

There were even more nations in the Austro Hungarian army...but that is not the point...in 1919 it was only Romania that defeated Hungary while in 1916 Hungarians were part of a multinational coalition that defeated Romania...so there is no point for comparisions
As far as the flag colours alignments I might be wrong( for the period in question ) but what I do know is that Romania flag waved over Budapest in 1919.Regards

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DenesBernad
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Post by DenesBernad » 26 Mar 2002 20:55

I am sorry to correct you again, "Rommel".
In 1918-1919, Hungary was defeated by 3 armies: the Rumanian, the Czechoslovakian and the Serbian, with the tacit support of French troops. So that was also a multi-national effort.

Dénes

Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 26 Mar 2002 20:58

anyway without being nationalist now it was mostly the Romanian army...and of course France's tacit support

MagyarCrusader
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Re: re

Post by MagyarCrusader » 26 Mar 2002 21:51

IAR80 wrote:Romania was in fact urged by the westerners to do their dirty work and do their part to clean up Europe of totalitarism, which Hungarians were, so here they were the bad guys, or are you suggeting that everything hungarian is noble, even dictatorship???


Don't make me laugh! I suppose tearing country apart against the will of its people with no self-determination is, oh what's the opposite of dictatorship, DEMOCRACY?!?! Oh yes, I guess that a foreign army raising their flag over the the parliament of the country they just invaded and tore to pieces is not an act of dictatorship?!

we had to take back Transylvania which is undoubtely Romanian land..

2 things one for that. The first time Romania appeared on anyone's map was the 1800s and at that time it did not include Transylvania, a land that had been part of a Kingdom called Hungary which appeared on maps around 1000AD.
Secondly, if it is undoubtely Romanian, why didn't you allow the plebiscites for self-determination to occur in the land? This would completely legitimize your argument. How could Hungary say it's their land when the people's voice says they don't want to be Hungarian? I mean, the people there would have undoubtedly voted to be Romanian, since they are undoubtedly Romanian... :roll:
Your propaganda fools nobody but yourselves.

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Cezarprimo
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Let's get back to the point

Post by Cezarprimo » 27 Mar 2002 12:31

Once again our nice discussion has spined off from its topic. Don't misunderstand me, I find interesting talking about the Romanian occupation of Budapest in 1919, but I'm sure there are more interesting subjects as "how were the colours of the romanian flag arranged". In 1918, there were romanian flags with horizontal stripes, but, I belive that the sentence about the romanian flag waving over Budapest should be read metaphoric, as in Romania defeated Hungary completely and Hungary was at Romania's mercy.

Fact is that in 1919, Hungary was a communist state, and probably Romania did Europe and itself a very big service by destroing that hornet nest. Further, there was a french army in Banat, but it didn't participated directly in operations against the commies alongside the romanians.

The hungarians managed to defeat the czech army before they attacked the romanians (they would have been pretty stupid not to do so), so the bulk of the fight was between romaninas and hungarians. There is no fault in saying that the romanians defeated the hungarians with no external help than, as the czechs become involved only when communist Hungary was already defeated and the french didn't intervene directly at all. The serbian army was involved only in Voivodina, until now I have no knowledge about it participating in the 1919 operations against Hungary, so Denes, pleas tell us a little bit more about this.

Further, the Entenete pressured the romanians not to occupy the whole of Hungary and to retreat from there as soon as possible. I find amusing this caring for the communist Hungary as the americans, the french, the british and others became involved in fighting the russian communists the year after.

For those of you that are arguing with MagyarCrusader, my advice is to let him be, he is a hungarian extremist and it makes no sense to try and reason with him on subjects related to hungarian history. He is rude and completly uninformed, just look in the old forum, in the same thread, you'll see...

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DenesBernad
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Answer to Cezarprimo

Post by DenesBernad » 28 Mar 2002 18:18

Cezarprimo wrote:
"Once again our nice discussion has spined off from its topic. "
I agree. Because of the original topic of this thread was the 2nd Vienna Award, I will start a new thread dealing with the Rumanian-Hungarian conflict of 1918-1919.

"I'm sure there are more interesting subjects as "how were the colours of the romanian flag arranged"."
I made a point to Rommel when I talked about how the Rumanian flag looked like in 1919, as I wanted to dispel the myth of "the Rumanian flag flying over the Hungarian Parliament in 1919".
If you don't find such details interesting, then simply don't read them...

"I belive that the sentence about the romanian flag waving over Budapest should be read metaphoric"
I agree. In this context, the metaphore is correct, as the Rumanian troops were who entered and occupied Budapest on 4 August 1919.

"Romania defeated Hungary completely and Hungary was at Romania's mercy."
Well, it wasn't exactly like this. The real masters were the French. The Rumanians acted in the shadow of the French regional interests. Moreover, as shown earlier, it was the Rumanian-Czechoslovak-Serbian coalition (the future Petit Entente) who defeated Hungary militarily in 1918-1919.

"Fact is that in 1919, Hungary was a communist state".
Only partially true. The Hungarian Communists lead by Béla Kun (Kohn) took over power only in early 1919 (I don't have my references handy). So the Communist government was in power only for about 5-6 months in 1919.

"The hungarians managed to defeat the czech army before they attacked the romanians (they would have been pretty stupid not to do so), so the bulk of the fight was between romaninas and hungarians. There is no fault in saying that the romanians defeated the hungarians with no external help than, as the czechs become involved only when communist Hungary was already defeated and the french didn't intervene directly at all. The serbian army was involved only in Voivodina, until now I have no knowledge about it participating in the 1919 operations against Hungary, so Denes, pleas tell us a little bit more about this."
Your description of events is incorrect and has several half truths in it. A reply to these details will be given in the new thread.

"Further, the Entenete pressured the romanians not to occupy the whole of Hungary and to retreat from there as soon as possible. I find amusing this caring for the communist Hungary as the americans, the french, the british and others became involved in fighting the russian communists the year after."
See my reply above.

Dénes

Rommel
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Post by Rommel » 01 Apr 2002 01:37

Denes...which are the halftruths in the post,regards Rommel

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Post by Abel Ravasz » 01 Apr 2002 13:13

Just to back up Denes a bit.

After the WW I, Hungary defeated and without a leader, a new government rose from the ruins. Its leader was Mihaly Karolyi, who was a pacifist and indeed had no intention to fight either the Petite nor the normal Entente, he wanted peace even at the costs of territory. But, after the so called Vix memorandum, which demanded Hungary to give the major part of its eastern area to Romania, his government rapidly collapsed and a new one, a communist, emerged. Lead by a jew, Bela Kun, this new state eventualy began to take back the places captured by the czechs, romanians and serbs, who used the pacifism of Karolyi to do whatever they wanted with the borders of the state which has already lost the most of its area and population. The new army, the Red one, fought the czechs and stopped their advance in the territory which is now southern Slovakia, but which has more than 75% Hungarians of the population. But, when Romania began its advance at the east, the communists ran away, hiding in the chaos of the Soviet Union. So, literally nothing stood between the Romanian army and Budapest, nothing but one man, admiral Horthy, who later lost his reputation for co-operating with the nazi regime. The admiral formed a new army from the former Austrian-Hungarian army's veterans in south Hungary, and eventually re-took the most of the lost area, including the already pillaged capital, Budapest. The Romanian troops retreated back to their country, but they still held Transylvania, a complicated area which is very mixed between the two nations, at some place you might find a 100% population of Hungarians but at other places just Romanians. This is the true story of the Romanian army in Budapest.
Hope that none of you will take offense of this post, since I wrote the very best and the most peacefull I could of this serious part in the history of our States.

Abel

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