Stalin: "The good guy" or just a murderer?

Discussions on other historical eras.
Karman
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#46

Post by Karman » 14 Sep 2005, 08:16

Reigo wrote:Karman, nice tirade! I don't see that I should respond to any part of it.

One little nit-picking though:
The Russian Culture was oppressed under Soviets as much as the cultures of other nations and nationalities of the SU.
If this is true (Russian Culture was oppressed under Soviets as much as let's say Veps culture) then Russian schools must have been closed. :P
Another excellent example of your logic.
Do you mean that all cultures which scools were closed were oppressed and all other were supported?
Do you think that language is the only one attribute of culture?

Karman
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#47

Post by Karman » 14 Sep 2005, 08:48

Askold wrote:
You mean to prove that when suppressing the other confessions Soviets cherished the Russian Orthodox? So prove it. That is crap.
You mean that the Ukrainian language was not learnt ar schools? So prove it.
- Again, empty semantics, without any proff of the opposite. The best example fo trying to clamp down on Ukrainian language is present day situation in Ukraine, where not just in the East, but most of Central parts, people speak Russian. This was done, because of the waves of russifications. Similarly, you'd get russian speaking Lithuanians and Latvians. .
What do you mean by "Eastern Ukraine"? What is your story of colonization of Slobodskaya Ukraine and Novorossia? The Don Cossacks have the South variant of the Russian language very close to surdjik of Levoberezhie. What is your story of "russification" of the Don Cossacks?

As for the Othodox church - naturally it was supporded by the State.
Evidence?
It is a well known fact that Alexei 2 was an KGB informer.
Any proves?
As for the churches - the Ukrainian catholic churches that were taken away, were actually handed over to the Russian orthodox. And before anybody asks me to provide examples (I mean you Karman :), please explain me the reason, why would there be russian orthodox churches in Western Ukraine in the first place.
What do you mean? Shall I tell toy the history of the Orthodox Tradition in the Western Ukraine? Do you btw know that your native Lvov was the renown center of Orthodoxy? Do you know the story houw the Ukrainian Catholic church was distributed in that region?
But what connection does it have with Stalin's support of Russian Orthodox Chirch?

So far I have not seen any proves from you guys.
Give us proves of the public support of the Russian orthodox Chirch under Stalin except a very short period during WW2.


Reigo
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#48

Post by Reigo » 14 Sep 2005, 14:39

Karman wrote:
Another excellent example of your logic.
Do you mean that all cultures which scools were closed were oppressed and all other were supported?
Do you think that language is the only one attribute of culture?
It's hard to see how the rubbish you write is related to anything I said. I remind you that you said:
The Russian Culture was oppressed under Soviets as much as the cultures of other nations and nationalities of the SU.
Note that I made "as much as" bold. So to make it more clear to you: it is impossible that the Russian culture was "oppressed as much" as Veps culture since Russian schools were not closed.

Logics and you are aliens as already seen earlier.

Karman
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#49

Post by Karman » 14 Sep 2005, 17:34

Reigo wrote: Note that I made "as much as" bold. So to make it more clear to you: it is impossible that the Russian culture was "oppressed as much" as Veps culture since Russian schools were not closed.

Logics and you are aliens as already seen earlier.
Come on, Reigo. The Russian language was not a part of the Russian culture only. It was an inherent part of the Soviet Culture. You can equate the Soviet Culture to the Russian one. But this is not true. The Soviet culture was hostile to the Russian one and denied it in most points. Russian language was just an instrument for Soviets but did not mean any value of the Russian culture. Do you mean that when Bassaev gave his interview in Russian he meant to support the Russian culture?

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#50

Post by David Thompson » 14 Sep 2005, 17:56

Drop the personal remarks and stick to arguing the topic.

Reigo
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#51

Post by Reigo » 14 Sep 2005, 21:12

Karman wrote:
Come on, Reigo. The Russian language was not a part of the Russian culture only. It was an inherent part of the Soviet Culture. You can equate the Soviet Culture to the Russian one. But this is not true. The Soviet culture was hostile to the Russian one and denied it in most points. Russian language was just an instrument for Soviets but did not mean any value of the Russian culture. Do you mean that when Bassaev gave his interview in Russian he meant to support the Russian culture?

It is irrelevant if Russian language was not a part of the Russian culture only. However Russian language was part of Russian culture. And Russian culture was not oppressed as much as Veps culture because for example Russian schools weren't closed. Simple.

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Askold
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#52

Post by Askold » 14 Sep 2005, 21:39

Karman:

1. You seem to have constant problem with geographical terms:
What is your story of colonization of Slobodskaya Ukraine and Novorossia? The Don Cossacks have the South variant of the Russian language very close to surdjik of Levoberezhie. What is your story of "russification" of the Don Cossacks?
- The correct spelling should be "Slobids'ka" Ukraine, and "Novorosija" with one "s". I am going to skip your shouvenistic view on history, but will just mention that Don borders ethnic Ukrainian lands, so it is no wonder their dialect is full of Ukrainian in it.

2. The reasons for russians opening Orthodox churches in Western Ukraine is simple - to russify the land.

3. Regarding patriarch Alexei 2. Unfortunately I could not find english version of the article (I am sorry to the non-russian speakers of the forum), but since you're the only one who denies that church worked with KGB, this should do:


Алексий II - агент КГБ по кличке "Дроздов"?

Биографии церковных иерархов столь же причудливы, как и история самой церкви. Здесь делаются головокружительные карьеры. 1958 год. А. Ридигер, настоятель Йыхвинской православной церкви (Эстония), 1929 года рождения, имевший незаконченное (по болезни) восьмилетнее образование и духовную академию за плечами, становится настоятелем тартуского Успенского собора. Через три года был пострижен в монашество и стал Епископом Таллинским (ему тогда было только 32, и он был женат), еще через три года - Архиепископом, через четыре - Митрополитом. За десять лет человек делает карьеру, на которую у иных уходит жизнь. За семь лет - с 1961-го по 1968 год - объезжает десяток стран (Израиль, Англию, ФРГ в том числе), и это при том, что священники не были особо выездными.

Связь РПЦ и КГБ - тайна полишинеля. Во все времена и во всех государствах церковь либо играла роль спецслужб, либо жила с ними душа в душу. Уж больно похожи: структурой, принципом круговой поруки, закрытостью своей, фанатизмом, неподконтрольностью, таинственностью. Орден иезуитов, масоны и тамплиеры, меченосцы, Гапон, в конце концов, - все они рыцари плаща и кинжала. И цели этих структур идентичны: сохранение власти. Своей. Недаром Иван Грозный пытался облечь опричников в монашеские одеяния, а Петр Первый, учредив Священный Синод, то есть официально закрепив брак церкви и государства, отменил тайну исповеди, обязав священников доносить. И доносили.

Последнее время РПЦ захлестнула волна компромата. Многие из разоблачений удивительным образом появлялись в нужное время и в нужном месте, когда под кем-нибудь из иерархов шаталось кресло. И закономерно, что все эти скандалы связывают с борьбой за самый высокий пост - Святейшего Патриарха. Все эти скандалы были обставлены со знанием дела, и многие из них так или иначе связывают с именем одного из митрополитов Центрального Черноземья, который открыто недолюбливает нынешнего Патриарха. И если напомнить, что Митрополит этот связан тесными, почти родственными узами с высокопоставленным офицером ФСБ, возглавлявшим одно время управление собственной безопасности, а до этого трудившимся в "пятерке", отвечая именно за церковь, то тонкость внутрицерковной борьбы перестанет удивлять вовсе.

В свое время комиссия Якунина - Пономарева под лозунгами десталинизации активно пыталась разобраться в связях РПЦ и КГБ. Общественные интересы здесь, безусловно, переплетались с личными, но это неважно. Важно, что сам факт создания подобной комиссии вызвал серьезный переполох в РПЦ. Потребовалось вмешательство высших церковных чинов, бивших челом в кабинетах высших чинов политических, чтобы комиссия прекратила свою работу, а расследование перешло в ведение самой церкви. Его проводили под руководством Митрополита Костромского Александра. Но этот духовный "отдел собственной безопасности" так и не обнародовал ни одного отчета.

Шумные разоблачения, связанные с отдельными агентами в рясах, стали забываться, почетные грамоты КГБ "За особые заслуги" вернулись в личные архивы, слово "люстрация" перестало быть синонимом бессонницы.

Но скромный архивариус Таллинского архива Юрью, разбирая завалы документации Совмина Эстонской ССР, натыкается на странный документ: "Отчет об агентурно-оперативной деятельности за 1958 год 4-го отдела КГБ при Совете министров ЭССР". С подзаголовком: "Состояние агентурно-оперативной работы по пресечению враждебной деятельности церковников и сектантов". (Папка "Сов. секретно". Эк. 2. Серия "К").

В отчете, доказывающем, что 4-й отдел не зря ел свой хлеб, - данные на несколько десятков агентов. Среди них разные люди, есть и служители церкви: лютеране, католики, православные.

Например, агент "Каск" - лютеранин, "пользующийся большим авторитетом в руководящих кругах Эстонской лютеранской церкви". Или агент "Дроздов", "1929 года рождения, священник православной церкви, с высшим образованием, кандидат богословия... Завербован 28 февраля 1958 года на патриотических чувствах для выявления и разработки антисоветского элемента из числа православного духовенства... При вербовке учитывалось в будущем (после закрепления на практической работе) выдвижение его через имеющиеся возможности на пост епископа Таллинского и Эстонского.

За период сотрудничества с органами КГБ "Дроздов" зарекомендовал себя с положительной стороны, в явках аккуратен, энергичный, общительный... К выполнению наших заданий относится с желанием и уже представил ряд заслуживающих внимания материалов, по которым проводится документация преступной деятельности члена правления Йыхвинской православной церкви.. После закрепления агента на практической работе... намечаем также использование его в наших интересах путем направления в капиталистические государства в составе церковных делегаций".

Какая-то система странных совпадений... Йыхва, 1929 год, 1958-й, епископ Таллинский, поездки за рубеж...

К этому можно и нужно относиться спокойно, поскольку здесь нет ничего странного, страшного или сенсационного. Просто давно пора понять: любая власть, не важно - церковная ли, светская - только власть. И ничего больше. Со всеми вытекающими отсюда последствиями.

А для тех, кто не особо силен в духовной номенклатуре, поясним: А. Ридигер служит церкви до сих пор. В должности Патриарха всея Руси.


(Благодарим за помощь в подготовке материала эстонского журналиста Томаса Маттсона)


Борис СОБОЛЕВ, Сергей СОКОЛОВ


Reigo
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#53

Post by Reigo » 14 Sep 2005, 21:57

Yes in Soviet Union the churches had to make "compromiss" so to be able to act. Also the bishops of the Estonian Protestant church were technically KGB agents (they wrote reports). IIRC fex a Lithuanian bishop (Krisostomus?) has admitted that he too had to work for KGB.

Karman
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#54

Post by Karman » 15 Sep 2005, 11:50

Askold:
1. Novorossia and Sloboskaya Ukraine were colonized by both Orthodox refugees from Turkish provinces, peasants from central Russia and Ukraine and also Jews. So there is nothing special about forming a South Russian dialect of the Russian language there which is actually a mix of various rural ldialect. All of that is well documented. So your claims that "ethnic Ukrainian lands" bordered Don are so absurd that should not be even mentionned. have you ever heard of the Dikaya Step (Howling Wilderness) ? No Orthodox settlers could colonize that land before Crimean Khanate was defeated by Russians.
The reasons for russians opening Orthodox churches in Western Ukraine is simple - to russify the land.

Crap. The Orthodoxy was the original religion of that land. Second: so when Soviets closed the Ortodox Chirches they de-russified the land? And when Soviets preserved both original language and opened more schools and organized cultural events in the national language what did they do?

Referring to your link. This does not prove that it was "a well known fact" This quote does not describe any fact. It is just an article without any proves or documents or nothing. This is just a baseless claim. There are different people with different points. Some are proving that Americans never landed on the Moon, some that ancient "Ukrs" colonized the Dnieper region, some are fighting against Russian Orthodox Chirch.

Reigo
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#55

Post by Reigo » 15 Sep 2005, 16:21

This is just a baseless claim
It is not a baseless claim since:
a) historian Jürjo really exists
b) he really has found the described document
d) although the agent's real name is not mentioned in the document the agent's background which is described in the document fits with Aleksius' background

Conclusion: considering the fact that it was widespread that high ranking church (no matter which confession) members were KGB agents it is likely that also Aleksius was. Especially when such document has been found.

Karman
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#56

Post by Karman » 21 Sep 2005, 17:12

Reigo wrote:
This is just a baseless claim
It is not a baseless claim since:
a) historian Jürjo really exists
b) he really has found the described document
d) although the agent's real name is not mentioned in the document the agent's background which is described in the document fits with Aleksius' background

Conclusion: considering the fact that it was widespread that high ranking church (no matter which confession) members were KGB agents it is likely that also Aleksius was. Especially when such document has been found.
Well, well, well. I still fail to see how your points a) , b) and c) as well as the conclusion correlate to Askold's claim that "it is a well known fact" that Aleksiy was a KGB agent. The first time this information launched by the Commission of the State Dima that worked in 1990 and was headed by Ponomariov and the notorious renegade priest Yakunin (who now lives in the USA). I refer to the fact that Yakunin lives in USA to underline that today he may not be offended either by Patriarch or by Russian State. Here is the extract from Radio-Liberty (Svoboda) conference concerning the 15 anniversary of inauguration of Aleksiy. We should point out that this Radio station is independent from Russian Chirch and Russian gvt. here what Yakunin said: "Åñëè, äîïóñòèì, êàê ãîâîðÿò, àãåíò Äðîçäîâ, êòî óæ òàì ñêðûâàåòñÿ ïîä ýòèì èìåíåì, íî ïî÷åìó, åñëè áû îí îáðàòèëñÿ ê íàðîäó è ñêàçàë: ïðîñòèòå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî âðåìÿ áûëî òðóäíîå, ìíå ïðèøëîñü ñîòðóäíè÷àòü. "
http://www.svoboda.org/ll/grani/0605/ll.061005-1.asp

So he does not rely on the document discovered in Estonia. Another person whp participated in the conference said that there are no documents in this regard. They are iether closed or destroyed.
Then you said that the Estonian historian discovered some document confirming that Aleksiy was a KGB agent. But Aleksiy did not stay in Estonia and if he were the agent then all the documents should had been moved to the central KGB office - to his supervisor in the central office. The local KGB offices stored the information on the local agents only.

I should add that they also claim that Aleksiy did not only a KGB agent but also cooperated with Gestapo during the war.

Reigo
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#57

Post by Reigo » 21 Sep 2005, 20:51

Then you said that the Estonian historian discovered some document confirming that Aleksiy was a KGB agent.


You have bad habit inventing things. I didn't say such.
But Aleksiy did not stay in Estonia and if he were the agent then all the documents should had been moved to the central KGB office - to his supervisor in the central office. The local KGB offices stored the information on the local agents only
Well, well, well. Wrong!

1950: Aleksius was sent to the Jõhvi church in Estonia
1957: he was priest in the Tartu (Estonia) Uspensky church
1958: according to document (KGB report from 1959) found by Jürjo the KGB recruited agent "Drozdov" (who is suspected to be Aleksius)
1961: he was named as Tallinn and Estonian Bishop.

http://www.ekspress.ee/viewdoc/C5E1D3D0 ... C20029302C

Karman
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#58

Post by Karman » 22 Sep 2005, 09:05

Reigo wrote: Well, well, well. Wrong!

1950: Aleksius was sent to the Jõhvi church in Estonia
1957: he was priest in the Tartu (Estonia) Uspensky church
1958: according to document (KGB report from 1959) found by Jürjo the KGB recruited agent "Drozdov" (who is suspected to be Aleksius)
1961: he was named as Tallinn and Estonian Bishop.

http://www.ekspress.ee/viewdoc/C5E1D3D0 ... C20029302C
He became the mitropolit of Leningrad and Novgorod in 1986 under communists. So his possible personal files should have been moved to Leningrad. Besides that Jürjo found that piece of paper not in the KGB files but in the records of the Counsil of Ministers of the Estonian SSR. KGB was not the organization that left its files all around.

Karman
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#59

Post by Karman » 22 Sep 2005, 14:13

Addon:
KGB started to withdraw its files from Estonia in 1989. So there was no rush in the process. When Estonia became independent the last head of the Estonian KGB had 45 days to withdraw or to destroy all files that were still left in Estonia. Now they are all stored in Moscow. Estonian government is negotiating with Russian Gvt about the return of those files back to Estonia. So under this circumstances the information that an Estonian historian had disvoered some hot news about Moscow Patriarch looks like a real crap.

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#60

Post by Reigo » 22 Sep 2005, 21:01

So under this circumstances the information that an Estonian historian had disvoered some hot news about Moscow Patriarch looks like a real crap.
It looks like you fail (as usually) to understand that your writings are irrevelant.

Fact is: such Soviet document has been found. Fact is: agent "Drozdov's" background fits with Aleksius background. Maybe the document is a fake? Well come here and prove it. Until this has not been proved, your arguments are worthless.

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