Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

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JTV
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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by JTV » 04 Sep 2019 05:49

Tommy R wrote:
11 Dec 2018 20:18
Great update as usual!
On the subject on uniforms and especially boots; are there any numbers or more information on the Laplander boots?
How many was issued and how were they issued, to specific units or spread out randomly?
I guess they were made by different local manufacturers and then probably sent to some central warehouse for redistribution, or were they issued to troops locally?
I am sorry that I apparently did not notice your question, so this is going to be a very late reply on that.

Unfortunately I have not seen any numbers or additional information about Laplander boots or any other specific boot type. The statistics that I have found have just "boots" or "footwear" listed, no specific boot types. What little I can tell is that apparently Finnish Army issued Laplander boots as ski boots at least since 1920's, although not necessarily the exact type of boots shown in Seppo's post.

You may want to check photo number 84101 (small version below) from SA-kuva.fi online photo archive. It shows large pile of ski boots returned by soldiers of 14th Division in April of 1942 (presumably in exchange of standard jackboot-type boots for summer). Notice that these ski boots are Laplander-type boots, but seem to be mostly a laced short boot version and often partilly made from felt instead of being all-leather. What is generally known, while Finnish Army had several ski bindings designs in its use during World War 2, the standard ski bindings in its use was mäystin - basically a wide leather strap going over sole of a shoe - which required upward turned tip of boot for it to stay on.

It is practically certain that not all Laplander-type boots were issued. They were generally the best winter boots available at the time, so soldiers probably took a lot of their own Laplander-type boots into war.

Jarkko

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Tommy R » 04 Sep 2019 11:10

Thanks for the update and the reply!
So I guess that during winters, most (frontline) soldiers replaces their ordinary boots with some sort of winter boots, be it laplander boots or other types?

For the next update on uniforms, I woudn't mind some info on the (Finnish) usage of the Swedish livpäls during the war, I havn't found much information on this subject.

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 04 Sep 2019 20:14

These seem to be Finnish WW2 winter felt lined boots.
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https://www.varusteleka.fi/fi/product/s ... -no1/61545

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by JTV » 04 Sep 2019 20:54

Tommy R wrote:
04 Sep 2019 11:10
Thanks for the update and the reply!
So I guess that during winters, most (frontline) soldiers replaces their ordinary boots with some sort of winter boots, be it laplander boots or other types?

For the next update on uniforms, I woudn't mind some info on the (Finnish) usage of the Swedish livpäls during the war, I havn't found much information on this subject.
Unfortunately there is no specific data in which extent soldiers were issued winter boots. It may have also varied from one part of frontline to another or depending unit type - not all units and all part of frontline had as much need for ski troops. 14th Division to which those ski boots designed was stationed in Rukajärvi region for most of Continuation War - and Rukajärvi region was a wilderness covered by forest with very few roads and no railroad. Hence troop density was low in there and much of the frontline was isolated bases with troops patrolling between bases by daily walking or ski'ing from base to another.

Also it is worth noting that not all ski boots were necessarily being replaced for summer. Basic all-leather Laplander boots should have worked reasonably well in summer was well, although water-proofing them with boot-grease was probably not as easy. But boots which were at least partially made from felt would not have really worked at summer in typical terrain (swamps, rivers, lakes, ponds etc everywhere) of Finnish - Soviet front.

Livpäls - it appears to be Swedish fur coat of some sort? I have seen no references about use of Swedish fur coats. Finnish Army did have its own fur coat designs that are already on the website, but they were typically only available to officers and senior NCO's (only notable exception: cavalry fur coat m/22, but it was no longer common item during World War 2) who had bought them with their own money.

Jarkko
Last edited by JTV on 04 Sep 2019 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by JTV » 04 Sep 2019 21:03

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
04 Sep 2019 20:14
These seem to be Finnish WW2 winter felt lined boots.
Image
https://www.varusteleka.fi/fi/product/s ... -no1/61545
The basic boot design does appear to be similar to one of the less common boot designs used by Finnish military during World War 2, although what those photos show I would not necessarily call them felt-lined boots. Particularly leather soles were a feature of wartime boots, although it is unclear at which point they were replaced with rubber soles.

In fact have pair of felt-lined boots (huopavuorisaappaat) - they are leather boots with felt liners inside them. But the pair of boots on those photos looks more like what was/is referred as huopavarsisaappaat - which is a type of boot with felt bootleg and rest of the boot made from leather.

Jarkko

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Mangrove » 05 Sep 2019 11:19

Tommy R wrote:
04 Sep 2019 11:10
So I guess that during winters, most (frontline) soldiers replaces their ordinary boots with some sort of winter boots, be it laplander boots or other types?
Based on the statistics I have from a few shoe factory, two or three pairs of m/36 black leather boots (usually referenced as "saappaat, miehistön") were produced against one m/36 "Laplander" (pieksusaapas) during the Continuation War. Perhaps the most produced and liked winter footwear during the Winter and Continuation War was the wool felt ski boots based on a traditional Savonian model ("huopahiihtokengät").

Filtsko. AM.015919 - Armémuseum

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JTV wrote:
04 Sep 2019 20:54
Also it is worth noting that not all ski boots were necessarily being replaced for summer. Basic all-leather Laplander boots should have worked reasonably well in summer was well, although water-proofing them with boot-grease was probably not as easy. But boots which were at least partially made from felt would not have really worked at summer in typical terrain (swamps, rivers, lakes, ponds etc everywhere) of Finnish - Soviet front.
Reports by troops generally agree that the same pair of leather boots could not have been used both during the winter and the summer due to the fact that greasing the leather would remove much of air space between the fibres that provide some insulation during the winter. Due to this fact, two pairs of the same model were needed for the different seasons. Patrols preferred rubber boots over leather boots during the summer.

From 7./JR 27's Winter War era diary. The Company was situated around Kuhmo:
"Felt ski boots and leather boots with a wide beak [tip] are suitable for the summer and the winter. Only the latter ones during the summer and both during the winter".
Huopahiihtokengät ja nahkasaappaat leveällä nokalla sopivat kesällä ja talvella. Kesällä vain jälkimmäiset ja talvella molemmat.

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by JTV » 05 Sep 2019 20:09

Mangrove wrote:
05 Sep 2019 11:19
Based on the statistics I have from a few shoe factory, two or three pairs of m/36 black leather boots (usually referenced as "saappaat, miehistön") were produced against one m/36 "Laplander" (pieksusaapas) during the Continuation War. Perhaps the most produced and liked winter footwear during the Winter and Continuation War was the wool felt ski boots based on a traditional Savonian model ("huopahiihtokengät").
Pieksusaapas was the short boot version (lyhytvartinen versio) of Laplander type boots - right?
Reports by troops generally agree that the same pair of leather boots could not have been used both during the winter and the summer due to the fact that greasing the leather would remove much of air space between the fibres that provide some insulation during the winter. Due to this fact, two pairs of the same model were needed for the different seasons. Patrols preferred rubber boots over leather boots during the summer.
Are there any indicators if these reports resulted to actual decision to have separate pairs of boots for each soldier? I am asking because at least when it came to feedback gathered from the troops, some of the request contained in them were impossible to fulfill.

Also are you certain about rubber boots being favored? They were certainly issued to limited scale to units such as long range recon, what what I have read there were also cases of them failing in rather spectacular manner when being tested by Separate Battalion 4.

Jarkko

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Mangrove » 06 Sep 2019 08:44

JTV wrote:
05 Sep 2019 20:09
Pieksusaapas was the short boot version (lyhytvartinen versio) of Laplander type boots - right?
It is my understanding that "pieksusaapas" is the "Laplander" boot. Here's a list of army footwear mentioned on a price list (1 March 1942) by Päämaja. My remarks are inside brackets.

Kengät, matalavartiset,
Kengät, m/34, korkeavartiset,
Saappaat [includes probably both m/27 and m/36]
Kumi- ja kumiteräsaappaat,
Pieksusaappaat,
Paulakengät [m/27?],
Hiihtohuopakengät ["Savonian" model],
Huopasaappaat ["Russian" model?],
Huopasaappaat, nahoitetut,
Vartiokengät.
JTV wrote:
05 Sep 2019 20:09
Are there any indicators if these reports resulted to actual decision to have separate pairs of boots for each soldier? I am asking because at least when it came to feedback gathered from the troops, some of the request contained in them were impossible to fulfill.

Also are you certain about rubber boots being favored? They were certainly issued to limited scale to units such as long range recon, what what I have read there were also cases of them failing in rather spectacular manner when being tested by Separate Battalion 4.
Letter by the CO of JR 11 to Päämaja on 10 December 1941: "There is still a significant lack of other pair of footwear. It is now essential to the men to be able to change footwear. There is also a great need for footwraps and socks".

Certainly rubber boots were not as widely-spread as leather boots during the Continuation War due to the fact that rubber was sparse raw material and most of it was needed for the tire production. Also, regenerated rubber boots proved not to be as durable as "regular" rubber boots. Apart from patrol use, at least some units in the Olonets Front used rubber boots as guard boots in the marshes and other wet conditions.

From patrol report by Patrol Pori (4 August - 13 September 1942) from Osasto Vehniäinen: "Rubber boots are the best footwear during the autumn for a man who can stand the "draft" ["Kokokumisaappaat ovat syksyn aikana jalkineita parhaat sille, joka sietää niiden "vetoa"].

From patrol report by Patrol Maria (9 August - 2 September 1942) from Osasto Vehniäinen: "Intact rubber boots and at least three pairs of footwraps and two pairs of socks are sufficient and functional for a patrol such as described." ["Jalkineina on partion mielestä ehjät kumisaappaat ynnä ainakin 3 paria jalkarättejä ja 2 paria sukkia riittävät ja käytännölliset nyt tehdyn kaltaista partiomatkaa varten".]

From patrol report by Patrol Markka (29 June - 29 July 1943) from Osasto Marttina: "Rubber boots proved to be the best" ["Kumisaappaat osoittautuivat parhaiksi"].

From Kaukopartio-opas (KaPo), finished by 3./Er.P 4 during late 1944: "Rubber boots or leather boots with rubber bottom are used [during the summer] ["Jalkineina käytetään joko kokokumisia tai kumiterällä varustettua jalkinetta"]

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by JTV » 09 Sep 2019 05:13

Mangrove wrote:
06 Sep 2019 08:44
JTV wrote:
05 Sep 2019 20:09
Pieksusaapas was the short boot version (lyhytvartinen versio) of Laplander type boots - right?
It is my understanding that "pieksusaapas" is the "Laplander" boot. Here's a list of army footwear mentioned on a price list (1 March 1942) by Päämaja. My remarks are inside brackets.
Thanks Mangrove. That clarified things a lot- and raised more questions as well. :)

My best try of translation to non-Finnish speakers:

Kengät, matalavartiset, - (shoes, with short shaft) presumably the type of very short laced ankle boots mainly used by Navy?
Kengät, m/34, korkeavartiset, (shoes, m/34, with long shaft) marching/short boots m/34
Saappaat [includes probably both m/27 and m/36] - jackboot-type leather boots
Kumi- ja kumiteräsaappaat, - rubber boots and (jackboot-pattern) pac boots
Pieksusaappaat, - Laplander boots
Paulakengät [m/27?], - another type of Laplander boots (with short shaft?)
Hiihtohuopakengät ["Savonian" model], - Laplander boots made from felt
Huopasaappaat ["Russian" model?], - Felt boots
Huopasaappaat, nahoitetut, - felt boots, laced
Vartiokengät. - ~sentry shoes. Any idea what these were? Something like the Germans were using?

Leather boots m/27 and m/36. What I have seen mentioned is that the main difference was apparently the tanning method and color - in other words boots m/36 were chrome tanned to black, but there seem to be conflicing info about tanning method used with boots m/27. Do you know were they chrome tannned to black brown, vegetable tanned (to light brown) or untanned?

Jarkko

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Mangrove » 09 Sep 2019 13:33

JTV wrote:
09 Sep 2019 05:13
Leather boots m/27 and m/36. What I have seen mentioned is that the main difference was apparently the tanning method and color - in other words boots m/36 were chrome tanned to black, but there seem to be conflicing info about tanning method used with boots m/27. Do you know were they chrome tannned to black brown, vegetable tanned (to light brown) or untanned?
M/27 leather boots were made out of vegetable tanned, natural brown leather, which was then dyed to black by the footwear repair centre(jalkinekorjaamo) attached to the garrison before use. The m/34 leather boots (NOT m/36 as I stated earlier) were chrome tanned leather dyed black by the manufacturer. Otherwise, it seems both m/27 and m/34 shared the same pattern and construction. Both had heel irons until some garrisons started using rubber heels during the mid-1930s.

Around 1939 or during the war, m/34 changed from fully nailed sole construction to partially stitched one. The last leather boots pattern, m/65(?), should be almost identical to m/34, but with a bit different stitched sole construction.

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 09 Sep 2019 18:07

The felt boot manufacturer Koskenpään Huopatehdas Oy calls these Mannerheim's felt boots without any explanation. Are they a model used by the army, but of white felt?
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https://www.huopaa.fi/yritys/
https://www.huopaa.fi/yritys/179-2/

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Mangrove » 09 Sep 2019 19:17

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
09 Sep 2019 18:07
Are they a model used by the army, but of white felt?
These are "hiihtohuopakengät", also known as "hiihtotallukat". These were both made by private individuals and factories alike before 1939 and were adapted by the Finnish Defence Forces during the Winter War. They had small variations in felt colour and the placement of leather reinforcements.

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Laurance.Robinson » 10 Sep 2019 06:27

JTV wrote:
04 Sep 2019 05:10
The website has been updated again. This time I added a new page about Navy uniforms, it can be found here:
https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/UNIFORMS6.htm

In addition there are numerous updates in various pages of the website. Some of the pages on the website still represent the level of information that I had maybe decade ago, so those pages will go through a major update in which I basically intent to rewrite them in large extent. Another thing that I started with this update is adding more period photos to the website.

Jarkko

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JTV,

It always makes me happy when I visit your site and see the update marks there.

Thanks for all the time and effort you out into it. It is a wonderful resource.

Best regards,

Lare

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 Sep 2019 19:39

JTV wrote:
09 Sep 2019 05:13
Paulakengät [m/27?], - another type of Laplander boots (with short shaft?)
I think "paula" here means "laced"

Regards, Juha

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Re: Jaeger Platoon, Finnish Army 1918 - 1945 Website updated

Post by Mangrove » 12 Sep 2019 16:49

Juha Tompuri wrote:
11 Sep 2019 19:39
I think "paula" here means "laced"
"Paulakenkä" is a traditional Finnish and Saami footwear fastened (pauloitettu) with woven band (nauha). I do not have any photographs of the mentioned m/27, but documents do not make any reference to laces. From Åström & Åström's circa 1930s catalogue:
A_A.jpg
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