Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

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RedRight
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Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by RedRight » 20 Nov 2018 16:36

I'm looking for as many as possible sources (Russian or not) confirming that the Finns shelled Mainila as was the official Soviet point of view.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 20 Nov 2018 23:17

The Russian TV channel Zvezda published this article last year:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 4-1vri.htm
In the prewar relations between the USSR and Germany, there is a clear desire to determine the strength of the parties. Such a test was the war with Finland. The Soviet Union, in order to ensure its security, asked Finland to move the border away from Leningrad into the depths of the Karelian Isthmus and offered in return twice the territory. Finland responded with military provocation with the clear support of Germany and the warmongers.

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Aleksander P
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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Aleksander P » 20 Nov 2018 23:38

There is no proof as it's simply not true.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Stiltzkin » 21 Nov 2018 04:06

In the prewar relations between the USSR and Germany, there is a clear desire to determine the strength of the parties. Such a test was the war with Finland. The Soviet Union, in order to ensure its security, asked Finland to move the border away from Leningrad into the depths of the Karelian Isthmus and offered in return twice the territory. Finland responded with military provocation with the clear support of Germany and the warmongers.
If this is from last year, then the system is still very intransparent. That is not much of a reappraisal. The USSR was one of the greatest war mongers in human history, I like the choice of words here. :thumbsup:

There is a summary presented in "The Russian record of the winter war, 1939-40: Analytical study of soviet records of the war with finland from 30. November 1939 to 12th March 1940".
https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/19633

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Art » 21 Nov 2018 07:12

RedRight wrote:
20 Nov 2018 16:36
I'm looking for as many as possible sources (Russian or not) confirming that the Finns shelled Mainila as was the official Soviet point of view.
If you take official statements in November 1939, there were no evidences presented just claims of something being a fact. (That being said, Finnish response was not much better when it comes to factual statements). The thing that looks like a coherent argument in post-war or even present-day discussions was a reference to similar (but less known) shootouts and accidents on the Soviet-Finnish border in 1939.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Nov 2018 22:18

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
20 Nov 2018 23:17
The Russian TV channel Zvezda published this article last year:
pretty sad thing

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Nov 2019 22:27

https://victorymuseum.ru/for-visitors/m ... -china/en/
https://twitter.com/muzeypobedy/status/ ... 0150773761:
The Soviet-Finnish war began 80 years ago. It's also called Winter." During the 105 days of armed conflict, hundreds of thousands of people were killed and wounded. The reason for the beginning was the shelling of the positions of Soviet troops by Finnish artillery.
Regards, Juha

edit 021219: online translation

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Art » 01 Dec 2019 07:59

"pretext" not "reason". That is how it is translated. If you add the missing word "alleged" than the whole phrase is just a commonplace.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Dec 2019 09:28

Art wrote:
01 Dec 2019 07:59
If you add the missing word "alleged" than the whole phrase is just a commonplace.
"Staged" would have been more truthful.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Art » 02 Dec 2019 13:09

No reliable factual basis for that.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Laurance.Robinson » 02 Dec 2019 18:59

But there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion that the event wasn't committed by Finland and was a fabrication by the soviet Union.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Dec 2019 19:56

Laurance.Robinson wrote:
02 Dec 2019 18:59
But there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion that the event wasn't committed by Finland and was a fabrication by the soviet Union.
Yep.
I had thought that the Soviet staged finnish artillery fire and the four Soviet KIA and nine WIA claim was a sort of Stalin era thing.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Art » 02 Dec 2019 21:33

Laurance.Robinson wrote:
02 Dec 2019 18:59
But there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion that the event wasn't committed by Finland and was a fabrication by the soviet Union.
First, I don't think there is enough circumstantial or non-circumstantial evidences. Second, I don't think that there is enough factual basis to exclude "Finnish" version. I would give 10% to a probability that the thing was committed by some fellows on the Finnish side. Finally, the entire question "who made the shots" is not particularly important, because the answer doesn't change practically anything in our knowledge.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Mikko H. » 03 Dec 2019 18:08

Art wrote:
02 Dec 2019 21:33
Laurance.Robinson wrote:
02 Dec 2019 18:59
But there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion that the event wasn't committed by Finland and was a fabrication by the soviet Union.
First, I don't think there is enough circumstantial or non-circumstantial evidences. Second, I don't think that there is enough factual basis to exclude "Finnish" version. I would give 10% to a probability that the thing was committed by some fellows on the Finnish side. Finally, the entire question "who made the shots" is not particularly important, because the answer doesn't change practically anything in our knowledge.
Had this really been the case, I assume that during the 80 years that has passed at least some shreds of circumstantial evidence would have surfaced. As it hasn't, I would say the probability is close to 0%.

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Re: Proofs for Soviet point of view about shelling of Mainila.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Dec 2019 11:08

If I remember correctly, a border incident also occurred with Estonia in 1939 or 1940.

It seems inherently unlikely that tiny states such as Finland (pop. 3,700) or Estonia (pop. 1,100,000), neither of which had military alliances with anyone else, would unilaterally provoke the USSR (pop. 169,000,000) in 1939.

The onus is very much on the Soviet side to provide proof.

Cheers,

Sid

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