Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by CF Geust » 31 May 2018 08:50

POWs of VVS KBF were (at least) Ltn. Ivan Markovich Shvedov (Il-4 pilot of 1 GMTAP) who was captured 20.6.1944, and Jn.Ltn Boris Kokorin (Il-2 pilot of 47 ShAP) who was captured 4.7.1944.

Detailled information about KBF-losses are generally NOT found in the Defence Ministry Archive (TsAMO) in Podolski, but in the Navy Archive (TsAVMF) in Gatchina - as the Navy formed a separate Peoples Commissariat during WW II, and was formally NOT subordinated to the Defence Ministry!

The mentioned aviator-POWs Jn.Lt. Nikolai Borisov and Red army Soldier Rem Khuzainov were members of the same Pe-2 crew (pilot and gunner; the navigator Sergei Kuznetsov was KIA. Pe-2 c/n was 9/275, unit 34 GBAP) which was shot down at Hiitola 18 June 1944 (note date!). Khuzainov was captured next day (19 June 1944).

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 27 Feb 2020 11:27

CF Geust wrote:
31 May 2018 08:50
POWs of VVS KBF were (at least) Ltn. Ivan Markovich Shvedov (Il-4 pilot of 1 GMTAP) who was captured 20.6.1944, and Jn.Ltn Boris Kokorin (Il-2 pilot of 47 ShAP) who was captured 4.7.1944.

Detailled information about KBF-losses are generally NOT found in the Defence Ministry Archive (TsAMO) in Podolski, but in the Navy Archive (TsAVMF) in Gatchina - as the Navy formed a separate Peoples Commissariat during WW II, and was formally NOT subordinated to the Defence Ministry!

The mentioned aviator-POWs Jn.Lt. Nikolai Borisov and Red army Soldier Rem Khuzainov were members of the same Pe-2 crew (pilot and gunner; the navigator Sergei Kuznetsov was KIA. Pe-2 c/n was 9/275, unit 34 GBAP) which was shot down at Hiitola 18 June 1944 (note date!). Khuzainov was captured next day (19 June 1944).
Thank you CF. There's inevitable mistakes on list of Lars Westerlund ("Prisoners of war and internees"). Borisov and Khuzainov was mentioned as crew of 34 GBAP and days didn't match either( 17 and 19 June). So there was indeed captured flying crew members of VVS KBF. So far i haven't found on that list of POWs andy PVO fighter pilots captured in Karelian Isthmus.
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 09 Mar 2021 16:30

What about Pe-2 losses in 19 June 1944? Finns had total 6 claims and Germans 1.
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by CF Geust » 09 Mar 2021 20:41

According to 13th Air Army loss reports there was only one total Pe-2 loss 19 June 1944:
- Pe-2 c/n 2/318 of 58 SBAP was shot down by A-A artillery near Simola railway junction at 21.03 (Moscow time), crew Capt. Petr Syrchin, Capt Daniil Lyubchenko and Lt. Nikolai Kamarov were killed.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 10 Mar 2021 20:02

And there was likely not any Il-4 bomber losses in 19 June either?
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by CF Geust » 11 Mar 2021 14:50

13. Ilma-armeijan 113 BAD:n 836 BAP menetti kaksi Il-4 pommikonetta Karjalan kannaksella 19.6.1944, (ainakin) toinen kone putosi Säiniöön, toinen "katosi" ("jäi palaamatta"). Valmistusnrot toistaiseksi tuntemattomat.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 11 Mar 2021 20:39

Kiitos.
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by CF Geust » 11 Mar 2021 21:26

CF Geust wrote:
11 Mar 2021 14:50
13. Ilma-armeijan 113 BAD:n 836 BAP menetti kaksi Il-4 pommikonetta Karjalan kannaksella 19.6.1944, (ainakin) toinen kone putosi Säiniöön, toinen "katosi" ("jäi palaamatta"). Valmistusnrot toistaiseksi tuntemattomat.
Same in English:
836 BAP (of 113 BAD, 13th Air Army) lost two Il-4 bombers on June 19, 1944. At least one Il-4 crashed in Säiniö (now Cherkasovo), the other one is reported as MIA. Construction numbers unknown.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 15 Mar 2021 17:54

Because my Russian skill is on ground level i ask your help, dear. Are these figures claims of 275 IAD (fighter division) and it's losses during 9 June - 19 June 1944? Or are their own losses plus losses of Il-2s and bombers they were escorting? (go to page 4)

For instance in 19 June: 17 versus 26. I understood it that 275 IAD with Il-2 units lost total 18 aircraft (at least one Il-2 shot down by AA) while they (together with Il-2 crew?) claimed 26?

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view ... b041ffdev6
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 19 Mar 2021 11:59

CF Geust wrote:
02 Apr 2018 07:42


Fighter losses included one La-5 (159 IAP) and seven Airacobras (196 IAP), and three Yak-9s damaged (14 and 29 GIAP) of 275 IAD. 2 GIAK PVO (air defence fighter corps) lost one Yak-9 (27 IAP), one La-5 (401 IAP) and one Airacobra (103 GIAP).

Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) lost two Il-2s and one La-5 at the Bay of Viipuri.
Personal losses of 275IAD:
Vershinin ,Grigory (captain) KIA…..159 IAP (La-5)
Arkhipov, Vasily (guards captain)...MIA…..196 IAP (Airacobra)

PVO personal loss:
Ivanov, Igor...(lieutenant)...MIA….27 GIAP (Jak-7/9)

11B BAD (Il-4) personal losses:
Zhuravlev, Andrei MIA ,Chernobay,Pjotr(sergeant) MIA,Gallyamov, Jacob(sergeant) MIA , Egorov, Aleksander.(sergeant) MIA , Rutskoi, Vasili (captain) MIA ? Sarzhevsky, Andrei (jr lieutenant) MIA. I found those six names but not eight.

Please correct me if í'm wrong...

Source: http://teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/DivDocs/DivDocs10.html
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 07 Apr 2021 18:29

CF Geust wrote:
02 Apr 2018 07:42
On 19 June 1944 ...

Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) lost two Il-2s and one La-5 at the Bay of Viipuri.
There might have been 3 Il-2 losses? This is yandex-translate

https://www.prlib.ru/en/item/1288877

"During the day on the fairways of Vyborg Bay - port of Kotka
Up to 70 enemy ships were detected, including up
to 12 transports and 13 landing craft. (Arch. 11199, ll. 54, 55.)
From 12 h. 36 m. to 13 h. 37 m. and from 16 h. 17 m. to 21 h. 12 m. aircraft
IL-2 (7 gpshakp, 8 gshap, 35 shakp and 47 shap) carried out bombing
and assault attacks on enemy ships and floating facilities
in the Vyborg Bay area, making 177 sorties, while
one was sunk and damaged in the eastern bay of the port of Transund
2 dry cargo barges; in the area north of the Koivisto Poto peninsula-
captivity barge; near Cape Ristiniemi sunk 2 tug and pover-
ideny 2 transport 1,000 tons each; in the Gulf of Scamalot(????)
prisoner transport 1,000 tons; about 3 miles North of the island Euskera in
Briceno amphibious assault ship; near the Eastern shore of the island Pitkapaasi
damaged transport; in the area of the island Puccio(??) one amphibious assault ship
sunk and another damaged; near the island Patio sunk
a patrol boat, a longboat, a 2,000-ton transport,
presumably another transport was sunk and 2 vehicles, a landing ship
and a minesweeper were damaged.
Two Il-2s, hit by enemy anti-aircraft artillery, crashed
on landing; the aircraft crews remained unharmed. Third Il-2,
also hit by enemy anti-aircraft artillery, he landed on the water and sank

, his crew was rescued.
On the departure from the target, one of the groups of attack aircraft was attacked
by four Me-109s. Repelling the attack, gunner Sergeant Solodovnikov shot
down an enemy plane. The actions of the attack aircraft were covered by groups
of Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9 and LAGG-3 fighters (9 and 11 iap, 12 and 13 izkp),
which made 152 sorties. Four Yak-9s covering the
one of the groups of attack aircraft, shot down an enemy aircraft FW-190,"



I don't know was there another La-5 loss for Baltic Fleet or was this their only one:

Two La-5 (4 giap) from 12 h. 50 m. to 13 h. 28 m. and two other La-5
(the same regiment) twice from 15 h. 50 m. to 19 h. 27 m. flew on aerial
photography of enemy airfields Rakvere and Kahula. Two La-5 pri
returning to the airfield at 13: 15 m. met in the area of the village
of Sonda enemy aircraft Yu-52 under the cover of four
FV-190. Pilot Selyutin attacked the U-52 and shot it down. After the attack, let-
chick went into the clouds. Coming out of the clouds, the same pilot attacked and shot
down an enemy aircraft FV-190. The second La-5 did not return to the airfield for
unknown reasons. (Arch. 19104, ll. 579 vol., 583.)
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Mangrove » 11 Apr 2021 09:52

Soviet claims from page 430 (450) of the Chronicle of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union in the Baltic Sea and Lake Ladoga. Claims were supposedly made between 12.36 to 1.37 PM or 4.17 to 9.12 PM Moscow time on 19 June 1944.

Some Finnish sources for the day:

Päämaja. Operatiivinen osasto. Merivoimatoimisto
Merivoimien esikunta. Merenkulkuosasto
Itä-Suomenlahden rannikkoprikaati
Rannikkotykistörykmentti 22
1. Raivaajalaivue
2. Raivaajalaivue
5. Raivaajalaivue. I ryhmä
Saattaja 763

- One dry-cargo barge was sunk and two were damaged at the eastern bay of the Port of Tranzund (Uuras / Trångsund).

- A barge was sunk in the area north of the Koivisto Peninsula.

- Two tugs were sunk and two transport ships of 1,000-ton each were damaged in the area of ​​Cape Ristiniemi. 55 IL-2 bombed and strafed S/S Esbjörn (1,959 GT) at Ristiniemi after 11.45 AM. The ship sank at 6.13 AM on the previous day. S/S Esbjörn was raised and towed away on 11 September 1944 and returned to service in Finland. Tug Veitsiluoto 5 was sunk by bombs dropped by PE-2 in shallow water near Häränpäänniemi at 1.05 PM. Around 25 planes, some two-engine planes, bombed minelayer Ruotsinsalmi east of Ristiniemi around 11.20 PM. She received no damage.

- 1,000-ton transport ship was sunk in Satamalahti.

- A landing craft was damaged about 3 miles north of Kiuskeri Island.

- A transport ship was damaged off the eastern coast of Pitkäpaasi Island. Escort ship Saattaja 763 was lightly damaged by machine gun fire and bomb shrapnel at 1.04 PM. German Minensuchboot claimed a plane as destroyed.

- One landing craft was sunk and another damaged in the area of Pukkio Island.

- A patrol boat, a launch and a 2,000-ton transport ship were sunk in the region of ​​Paatio Island. Presumably another transport ship was sunk and two transport ships, a landing ship and a minesweeper were also damaged. Minesweeper Fersen received 20mm hit to the bow above the waterline at Paatio around 4.00 PM. Seven Finnish minesweepers and some German ships at nearby Essaari were attacked by IL-2 and fighters at 8.15 PM. There were no damage to the Finnish ships.

- Two IL-2 were damaged by anti-aircraft fire and crashed while landing, one was shot down by the AA and crashed into water. I/6.RIT.K claimed two IL-2 as damaged in Tiurinsaari at 12.35 and 4.35 PM on 19 June 1944. German vessels also claimed to have shot down four planes at Partialansalmi between Tiurinsaari and Koivisto.
В течение суток на фарватерах Выборгский залив —— порт Котка было обнаружено до 70 кораблей противника, в том числе до 12 транспортов и 13 десантных судов. (Арх. 11199, дл. 54, 55.)

С 12 ч. 36 м. до 13 ч. 37 м. И с 16 ч. 17 м. до 21 ч. 12 м. самолеты Ил-2 (7 гпшакп, & гшап, 35 шакп и 47 шап) наносили бомбардировочноштурмовые удары по кораблям и пловучнм средствам противника в районе Выборгского залива, произведя 177 самолето-вылетов, при этом в восточной бухте порта Транзунд была потоплена одна и повреждены 2 сухогрузные баржи; в районе севернее полуострова Койвисто потоплена баржа; в районе мыса Ристниемн потоплены 2 буксира н повреждены 2 транспорта по 1000 т каждый; в заливе Сатамалахти потоплен транспорт в 1000 Т; около 3 миль севернее острова Киускери повреждено десантное судно; у восточного берега острова Питкяпаси поврежден транспорт; в районе острова Пуккио одно десантное судно потоплено, а другое повреждено; в районе острова Патио потоплены сторожевой катер, баркас, транспорт в 2000 Т, предположительно, потоплен другой транспорт и повреждены 2 транспорта, десантное судно и тральщик.

Два Ил-2, подбитые зенитной артиллерией противника, разбились при посадке; экипажи самолетов остались невредимыми. Третий Ил-2, также подбитый вражеской зенитной артиллерией, сел на воду и потонул, его экипаж был спасен.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 12 Apr 2021 13:03

Without more information about La-5 we might have to make conclusion that only La-5 lost on 19 June happened in Estonia and not in Vyborg Bay.
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