RTR 4

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 11 Sep 2021 10:50

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 11 Sep 2021 10:52

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Your comments will be highly appreciated. Enjoy watching the pictures, and of course, stay healthy!
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ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 11 Sep 2021 15:06

Our next point will be Hiitolanmäki battery south of Impilahti. https://www.sotahistoriallisetkohteet.f ... 9/area/27/ says that Härkämäki battery was moved from Matsinsaari to Hiitolanmäki in summer 1944. So there should be 2 gun emplacements on Hiitolanmäki, but we found only one. On the other hand, there is quite similar gun emplacement near Kurkijoki at http://wikimapia.org/#lang=ru&lat=61.27 ... 2030.02121 I did not visit the latter place yet, but based on pictures at Wikimapia, it is really similar to that in Hiitolanmäki, so 2 guns from Mantsinsaari could be relocated to different places - one to Hiitolanmäki, another to Kurkijoki.
Thanks for the photos. It was 37.Rask.Ptri, which was evacuated from Mantsi on 9th July 1944. Both 152C guns were moved to Huunukka at Impilahti. The first gun positions were temporary and construction did not take long. First gun was ready 12th July and second 14th July. Later on 23rd July there was construction work going on at Hiitolanmäki. 70 men were building 2 Canet positions, 2 dugouts for gun crews, 2 for ammo, 1 for "keskiö" and fire control position. Transfer to new positions at Hiitolanmäki started 12th August and first gun was ready 28th August. Second gun was also moved to Hiitolanmäki, but probably never completely assembled, as evacutation of battery started soon after.

In the same report it is also mentioned that 18 men were building 2/152C positions at Mikli, east of Lahdenpohja.

Sources:
Diary of 37.Rask.Ptri http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3196488
Diary of Staff of RTR13 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3211943

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 11 Sep 2021 16:10

ML, many thanks for your comments. So I think we should search for the second position at Hiitolanmäki; probably it was not completed, but at least we have to find the place. It looks position at Kurkijoki belonged to any other battery; strange it's not mentioned at all at Sotahistoriallisetkohteet. I still do not know whether 1 or 2 gun emplacements are there, only one is mentioned on Wikimapia.

As about position at Mikli, the only possible solution is to go there and to ask local residents - maybe they saw something in the forest. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to find something on terrain having no more or less precise location binding, like lake, hill etc. You may walk those forests for days with no any result. Especially providing that those forests are not so suitable for walking.)))


ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 11 Sep 2021 20:50

It looks position at Kurkijoki belonged to any other battery; strange it's not mentioned at all at Sotahistoriallisetkohteet. I still do not know whether 1 or 2 gun emplacements are there, only one is mentioned on Wikimapia.
This position would fit to 39.Rask.Ptri (3/152C), which was first moved from Haapaniemi/Habanova to Kaarnajoki (20. - 25. June 1944) and then two guns from Kaarnajoki to "Kurkiniemi" at Kurkijoki 8. July. Battery diary mentions that casting of concrete at 1st gun position was completed 18. August and 2nd position 22. August. Trench to 1st position was also ready. Fortification builders left the battery 23rd August. After that 2nd gun was moved to new position, but work was stopped after cease fire 5. September. All battery equipment was transferred 22. September to Alho railway station and then to Liperi.
As about position at Mikli, the only possible solution is to go there and to ask local residents - maybe they saw something in the forest. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to find something on terrain having no more or less precise location binding, like lake, hill etc. You may walk those forests for days with no any result. Especially providing that those forests are not so suitable for walking.)))
This battery is 31.Rask.Ptri, moved from Ylläppää 10. July 1944 via Käkisalmi and Huuhanmäki to Mikli. Battery diary does not tell much about construction work of gun positions. Most likely they were only temporary field fortifications. In that case there's probably nothing left nowadays.

Sources:
Diary of 39.Rask.Ptri http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3196829
Diary of 31.Rask.Ptri http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3193748

EDIT: Temporary positions of 39.Rask.Ptri/Kurkijoki were at Pippuri, more permanent positions at Kotranpelto.
Kurkijoki_39RaskPtri.JPG
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Last edited by ML on 12 Sep 2021 17:54, edited 1 time in total.

ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 12 Sep 2021 08:35

There was an inscription on the wall carved in rock:

9 [then unclear symbol, could be "v" or "r"]
44. [then "Rauta"?.. "Raaja"?..]

Could numbers relate to September 1944? Could "Rauta" be someone's name?
Just guessing, but the word may be "Rauha" = Peace. Date would be then 4th or 5th September 1944. It looks like a piece of rock at left (with exact day?) may have fallen off later.

Someone has carved the date of peace (or actually cease fire) in rock?

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 13 Sep 2021 13:24

Mangrove, many thanks for so valuable maps you published!

Concerning Map of RTR 13's batteries on 1 July 1944 - we discussed this here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=154684&start=360#p2321352 No, I did not forget about this - I visited the place yet in July, but what seemed to be logging on satellite picture in fact was a grassland overgrown with human-sized Chamaenerion (Maitohorsmat), so it was just senseless to search there at that time. I will definitely go there in October - November, when there will be no high grass. Surely I'll report about the results. Generally the place looks perfect for position of a kind of obsolete guns with limited firing distance - it's flat grassland with ca. 40 - 50 m elevation.

- Map of RTR 13's batteries at Lake Ladoga on 28 July 1944 (supplemented 9 and 20 August 1944) is really interesting. First, 2 guns are mentioned on Huunukka, so there should be the second position there, even not completed - we will have to search for that. Second, quite surprising to see another position of 2/152/35MK - 43. Rask. Ptri on Riekkalansaari. Never heard about this position, and the place looks quite reachable - we'll have to search there too. Third, position of 31. Rask. Ptri in Mikli is now quite clear. But that will be definitely not 1 day trip to check all newly discovered locations.)))

ML, many thanks for your comments too! "Battery diary mentions that casting of concrete at 1st gun position was completed 18. August and 2nd position 22. August." - aha, so there should be 2 gun positions at Kurkijoki. Is there any info concerning what happened with the third gun of that battery?

"Temporary positions of 39.Rask.Ptri/Kurkijoki were at Pippuri, more permanent positions at Kotranpelto." - Wikimapia mark is shown just in 200 m from Kotranpelto. Probably temporary positions in Pippuri could be found as well.

"It looks like a piece of rock at left (with exact day?) may have fallen off later." - it looked the same for me, I even tried to search for smaller pieces with letters or digits on the ground, but with no success. On the other hand, the was not so much space in the upper left corner of the rock.

"Someone has carved the date of peace (or actually cease fire) in rock?" - sounds quite likely. Cease fire means you won't be killed at any moment - quite a reason to mark this fact.

Gentlemen, I will surely keep you informed about my further findings in Karelia, and thank you once again for your continuous support. Stay healthy!
Last edited by Eugenius on 13 Sep 2021 15:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Harri
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Harri » 13 Sep 2021 15:54

Excellent photos and information! Thanks to all!

Hopefully the Covid is "passing away" soon and for good...

(Juha T., could this discussion be divided into separate Lake Onega and Lake Ladoga ones because it is already rather long?)

ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 14 Sep 2021 20:59

- aha, so there should be 2 gun positions at Kurkijoki. Is there any info concerning what happened with the third gun of that battery?
One of the 152C guns of 39.Rask.Ptri was relocated from Kaarnajoki to Riihipelto east of Kaarlahti on 2. July 1944. Together with one gun transferred from Ylläppää (31.Rask.Ptri) it formed new 40.Rask.Ptri. Some days later remaining two guns from Kaarnajoki went to Kurkijoki and two guns from Ylläppää to Mikli.

40.Rask.Ptri at Kaarlahti/Riihipelto is also shown on Map of RTR 3's batteries on 7 July 1944 provided by Mangrove.

Finns were also building Canet positions in Puutsaari in August 1944. Possibly these were to be permanent positions for the guns then at Mikli, as some documents mention this battery as Mikli/Puutsaari. The positions at Puutsaari were not finished and only light battery was on the island in summer 1944. However, there had been one or two 152C at Puutsaari in autumn 1941.

In summer 1944 many of the 152C batteries used temporary field fortified positions. Guns were placed on timber bases, which were part of battery equiment and easily transported. More timber for bases was ordered from Akkaharju sawmill in August.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 15 Sep 2021 13:56

ML, many thanks once again for your comments.
40.Rask.Ptri at Kaarlahti/Riihipelto is also shown on Map of RTR 3's batteries on 7 July 1944 provided by Mangrove.
- do I understand it right that most likely battery locations in Riihipelto are one of those hills with 30 - 35 m elevation as I marked on this map?

Riihipelto.jpg
Finns were also building Canet positions in Puutsaari in August 1944.
- yes, those fortifications are shown on Wikimapia with some pictures attached: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=ru&lat=61.49 ... 2029.94718 It is mentioned that there is one concrete basement for 152 mm Canet gun, plus 2 not finished positions for smaller guns, plus trenches and other defensive positions partly carved in rocks and partly stacked of stones.

The main problem here is that Putsaari is an island, so the only way to get there is to rent a boat in Lahdenpohja, which takes time, money and suitable weather. So this will be most likely left for next season's trips.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 15 Sep 2021 15:11

Eugenius wrote:
15 Sep 2021 13:56
- do I understand it right that most likely battery locations in Riihipelto are one of those hills with 30 - 35 m elevation as I marked on this map?
Map from the diary of 40. Raskas patteri and link to the same location at www.karjalankartat.fi. The coordinates below are approximates.

1st Canet: 61.105 N, 29.941 E (WGS84)
2nd Canet: 61.106 N, 29.941 E (WGS84)
40RaskPtri.jpg
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ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 15 Sep 2021 18:24

Did some coordinate exercise for 43.Rask.Ptri positions at Mursula and Hakala:
43RaskPtri Mursula1.JPG
43RaskPtri_Mursula_map.JPG
According to this Mursula positions are bit to the north from the location given by Mangrove in the other thread. It is probably worth to check both alternatives.

Hakala at Riekkalansaari:
43RaskPtri_Hakala.JPG
43RaskPtri_Hakala_map.JPG
Exact coordinate system is not specified in diary, but hopefully I got it right (and did not make typos, scaling errors etc.) And let's hope patteriston mittausupseeri lieutenant Kangas also got it right in July 1944.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 15 Sep 2021 18:36

ML wrote:
15 Sep 2021 18:24
According to this Mursula positions are bit to the north from the location given by Mangrove in the other thread. It is probably worth to check both alternatives.
The coordinates at Mursula/Laitila include an altitude (K = 50). Unfortunately, the alternative position you suggested is located between the 30 and 35 metres elevation contours. The only location near Laitila farmstead with elevation of 50 metres is around the coordinates I suggested earlier. This also corresponds fairly well to the map I linked earlier.

ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 15 Sep 2021 19:08

The coordinates at Mursula/Laitila include an altitude (K = 50). Unfortunately, the alternative position you suggested is located between the 30 and 35 metres elevation contours. The only location near Laitila farmstead with elevation of 50 metres is around the coordinates I suggested earlier. This also corresponds fairly well to the map I linked earlier.
I also initially thought that the elevation is too low, as the height contour digit above name Leppälä looks like "30". But the contour direction lines tell this contour is uphill from contour "45" around name Laitila so it is actually "50". Also the elevation of Haukkalampi is 27 m and contour "30/50" near Leppälä is the fifth 5 m contour uphill from the pond.

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