RTR 4

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 10 Oct 2021 21:36

The second position is still a question. Here is the general map of the area, blue marks - our approximations of gun positions, red and yellow marks (yes, this is Finnish Coat-of-arms) - actual locations, the gunpit described above is the southern one:

Карта.jpg

When I found the southern position, I thought the northern one could be located symmetrically to our approximations. But searching in all those shrubs and thickets brought only this:

DSCF3393 Предположительно орудийный дворик, 61.10599, 29.94011.JPG

I suppose the above could be a gunpit. The area was obviously banked, but it could be a result of road re-construction after the war. Now it serves as drainage pit. No any metal was found; I even brought a shovel from my car and tried to dig to search for studs, which probably collapsed after wooden basement beams rotted, but with no success. It would be useful to have a metal detector, but I have no such a device. Maybe the studs were taken by scrap-hunters the decades ago; maybe I was just a poor digger; maybe it was not a gunpit, but just a drainage pit.

The object is located just 5 meters of the road. This passage to the road could be used for bringing the gun to the position:

DSCF3396 Проход для монтажа орудия.JPG

It's hardly recognizable on the picture, but the object to the right could be the collapsed ready service locker while the one on the left could be a passage to communication trench:

DSCF3397 Слева выход, справа кранцы.JPG

However, I'm still not sure this was a gunpit. The only solution is to get there again in spring, with no grass and no leaves, to search the area again.

Anyway, I congratulate all of us with 2 (well, maybe 1,5) more Ladoga batteries locations found. Obviously it would be not possible without your support with archive materials - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
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Last edited by Eugenius on 10 Oct 2021 23:08, edited 1 time in total.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 10 Oct 2021 22:07

ML wrote:
11 Sep 2021 20:50
This position would fit to 39.Rask.Ptri (3/152C), which was first moved from Haapaniemi/Habanova to Kaarnajoki (20. - 25. June 1944) and then two guns from Kaarnajoki to "Kurkiniemi" at Kurkijoki 8. July.
- concerning Haapaniemi and initial location of 39.Rask.Ptri - I searched for that position last year with my friend. We found 3 earthen pits here:

Карта2.jpg
Карта3.jpg

No concrete, no metal (well, we found 2 Soviet-made 7,62 × 54 mm R sleeves using my friend's metal detector, but that was not we searched for). The pits were rather rectangular than round, and located too close to each other for gun positions. Again, I think the Finns could build more solid gun positions in 1942. Then a dispute arose: my friend was sure we had found gun positions while I thought those were rather dugouts or depots. I did not make pictures as I thought there was actually nothing to picture there.

So my question is: is there any archive map showing Haapaniemi battery location with better precision? I believe it was located closer to the lakeshore than the pits we found.

Surely I'll provide pictures when I find that battery.
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 10 Oct 2021 23:02

Mangrove wrote:
09 Oct 2021 08:00
Apart from the gun pits, maritime surveillance station (merivalvonta-asema) at Kurkiniemi and position for 37 K 36 cannon at Kurkiniemi, there were no permanent structures at Pippuri or everywhere near Kotranpelto.
- is there any more detailed info concerning how that merivalvonta-asema looked like? Was it made of wood, or stones, or concrete?

I mean that getting there is definitely a boat trip as there are no drivable roads on Kurkiniemi while the distances are too far and the landscape is too tough for walking. But for renting a boat there should be something more substantial there than just a basement of a building.

Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 11 Oct 2021 11:12

These are ink and pencil drawings from the archives of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati. The first one is overlaid on top of 1930 Finnish 1:20 000 topography map (4141 01 Ihojärvi). It shows A III positions at the village of Kesvalahti some ten kilometres NE of A II (Kurkijoki). According to various documents, these positions were never manned:

Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, 11 July 1944: "The position scouting for A 3 and A 4 has been completed. Both positions can be dug into the ground [instead of e.g. rock blasting]"

Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, 17 July 1944: "In A 3, excavation work is so far that the erection of wooden foundations can begin on 19 July."

Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, 21 July 1944: "Excavation work completed in A 3. The gun emplacements are made without bases so that the bases can be installed in place afterwards. The bases are assembled ready for installation next to the gun emplacements."

Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, 29 July 1944: "In A 3, the gun positions with parapets are completed (bases not installed). Making of stretches of communication trenches is in progress."

Approximation of coodinates based on the sketch:

1st gun pit: c. 61.3722, 30.1598 (WGS84)
2nd gun pit: c. 61.3712, 30.1612 (WGS84)

A_III_Kesvalahti.jpg

The second one is drawing showing the position of 405. Kevyt Patteri (4 x 75 K/17) at Tervunkylä in July and August 1944. The exact coordinates for the positions were p=02354,5 i=07665,5 K=31. This probably refers to the hill at circa 61.3237 N, 30.1392 E (WGS84). See SA-Kuva 156482 - 156493 for more information about the positions.

405_Kevyt_Patteri.jpg
405_Kevyt_Patteri_Overlay.jpg
Image
Eugenius wrote:
10 Oct 2021 22:07
So my question is: is there any archive map showing Haapaniemi battery location with better precision? I believe it was located closer to the lakeshore than the pits we found.
Map of Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13's weapons between Variskivi and Lampioja on 29 January 1943.
Haapaniemi_1943.jpg
Eugenius wrote:
10 Oct 2021 23:02
Is there any more detailed info concerning how that merivalvonta-asema looked like? Was it made of wood, or stones, or concrete?
SA-Kuva photographs, like No. 129130 from Metsäpirtti, would suggest they were merely wooden towers.

Image
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Oct 2021 18:03

Eugenius wrote:
10 Oct 2021 18:51
So here it is - the second (or first?..) gunpit of 39. Rask. Ptri, August 1944, 61.27222, 30.01939:

A couple of general views, the gunpit is overgrown, so it is hardly visible in summer:
The same guns/gunpits/mounts at SA-photos 156470-156481 (Kurkijoki, Lapinlahti, Kontranpelto)
and
166373-166377 (Kurkijoki, Lapinlahti)?

Regards, Juha

edit:
Eugenius wrote:
29 Sep 2021 14:02
I checked SA-kuva using keywords "Lapinlahti" and "Kotranpelto", there are several pictures there showing various stages of battery construction, but it's difficult to say whether it was 1 gunpit or 2 different ones. Most of pictures have notes "Kurkijoki, Lapinlahti, Kotranpelto", some others only "Kurkijoki, Lapinlahti". Strange that any more exact point (like Kotranpelto) is not mentioned in sotapäiväkirja. Another strange fact is that most of pictures are dated 1944.08.02, but the battery was not ready yet by that time.
Aaa... these were familiar to you...
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Oct 2021 18:56

Eugenius wrote:
25 Sep 2021 11:08
The next chamber is... A shelter? An ammo depot? Looks to be too narrow for both functions. A full human-sized chamber cut in rock with curved ceiling made of concrete and sledged stones put on top. The length is ca. 6 m.
Hi!

A bit similar in construction as the on at SA-photo 156466 ( "keskiö" - the place where the calculations for artillery fire were made)
Mentioned to have been from 40. Heavy Battery, at Suokkala. SA-photos 156459-156467

Regards, Juha
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 12 Oct 2021 19:20

Mangrove wrote:
11 Oct 2021 11:12
It shows A III positions at the village of Kesvalahti some ten kilometres NE of A II (Kurkijoki).
- was it also 152/45C position of 39. Rask. Ptri? As it was mentioned that "In A 3, the gun positions with parapets are completed (bases not installed)", it may look similar to southern position in Riihipelto I recently found, but maybe without studs. Anyway, it's not far and the roads are quite drivable, so it is worth checking.
Mangrove wrote:
11 Oct 2021 11:12
The second one is drawing showing the position of 405. Kevyt Patteri (4 x 75 K/17) at Tervunkylä in July and August 1944.
- my experience says that nothing remains of field/wheeled gun positions unless no concrete was used like it was done in several cases for 122K/31 guns on Onega and Ladoga. At best it would be just a pit in the ground, something like the northern position in Riihipelto. But it is located not far from Kesvalahti, so both locations may be visited during the same trip.

Many thanks for really interesting map of eastern Ladoga shore. It looks there was a pack of various guns on Haapaniemi, and I still think gun positions should be searched closer to the lake shore:

Карта4.jpg

I wonder: is there any wartime Finnish topographic map of eastern Ladoga shore, especially the part between Hatsi and Haapaniemi? It would be nice to get know more details about terrain, because this part looks really promising:

Карта5.jpg

I saw a couple of Finnish positions of 122K/31 guns, and they looked really interesting - if made with concrete. I visited that area several times, this is a part of Olonets Natural Reserve - beautiful landscape with high pines, very convenient and fruitful for mushrooms picking. However, I never heard about 122K/31 guns positions there before. Having known topographic names, it would be easier to find SA-Kuva related pictures and to define the exact gun emplacements. To find positions of 4 x 122K/31 guns - quite a reason to go there again.
Mangrove wrote:
11 Oct 2021 11:12
SA-Kuva photographs, like No. 129130 from Metsäpirtti, would suggest they were merely wooden towers.
- well, if I sail along Kurkiniemi, I would take a time to visit that point. Otherwise I think there is nothing remained there worth seeing.

Well, if we virtually moved to eastern shore of Ladoga Lake, here are some more pictures for you:

125/50V2 position on Hatsi, 61.00329, 32.56337. First time we went there in July last year. We had a rubber boat with us, but the straight between the shore and the island was too shallow for boating and not suitable for walking in high boots with slippery round stones on the bottom. So I went there on the 1st of March.

DSCF8310-1.JPG

The remnants of the gun mount disappeared just a month before we came there - it looked like this for decades before:

gach.jpg

The above picture is taken from http://iv70.narod.ru/IV/12/Tuloksa_Olon ... ndrus.html

The same type gun basement at 61.19631, 32.27563:

DSCF5598.JPG
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Last edited by Eugenius on 12 Oct 2021 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 12 Oct 2021 19:24

One more picture from the eastern shore of Ladoga - 122/K31 gun basement at 61.19424, 32.28592:

DSCF5577 Бетонное основание 122-мм орудия 122 K31 (А-19), 61.19424, 32.28592.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 12 Oct 2021 20:57

Juha Tompuri wrote:
12 Oct 2021 18:03
Aaa... these were familiar to you...
- yes, now I saw both gun emplacements there.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
12 Oct 2021 18:03
A bit similar in construction as the on at SA-photo 156466
- at first glance I thought those guys were sawing boards or baking bread... Yes, ceiling construction is similar, but I think this is just a matter of technique - to overlap small premises. The one I saw had no openings on the ceiling or electric light mounts visible on SA-Kuva picture.

But let's get back to Suokkala mentioned in SA-kuva pictures - is it the one near Kaarlahti? Does anyone have any detailed info concerning where the positions of 40. Rask Ptri were there? As there was a concrete keskiö built there, it might remain till now. And gun positions could do - just help me finding them.
Last edited by Eugenius on 13 Oct 2021 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 12 Oct 2021 21:19

Eugenius wrote:
12 Oct 2021 19:20
- was it also 152/45C position of 39. Rask. Ptri?
Unfortunately it is not said in any of the documents I have seen.
Eugenius wrote:
12 Oct 2021 19:20
I wonder: is there any wartime Finnish topographic map of eastern Ladoga shore, especially the part between Hatsi and Haapaniemi? It would be nice to get know more details about terrain, because this part looks really promising:
There is complete set of 1:20 000 topographic maps made in 1943 and 1944 by Topografipataljoona:

- Pisi. Topografikartta 511310
- Haapana. Topografikartta 502412

Here's very rough overlay of the 1:100 000 sketch over 1:20 000 map.

Haapaniemi_1943.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 12 Oct 2021 22:50

Mangrove wrote:
12 Oct 2021 21:19
Unfortunately it is not said in any of the documents I have seen.
- well, then there is only one solution to find that out - to get there and see. I would be happy to invite you to join me, but now with this COVID...

Many thanks for linking very useful maps!
Mangrove wrote:
12 Oct 2021 21:19
Here's very rough overlay of the 1:100 000 sketch over 1:20 000 map.
- no, indeed it is precise enough. Now I'm even more sure that 152/45C positions should be searched closer to the lakeshore. No idea when I could get there again - it's a kind of cold for camping and swimming now, and too late for mushrooms-picking... But I still have to see some other points to check in that area. The main question is to find a companion - a someone who might push out your car when it gets stuck, and to support you at least morally when you meet a bear - otherwise it would be a kind of risky to go there alone.

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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 13 Oct 2021 15:34

Eugenius wrote:
12 Oct 2021 20:57
But let's get back to Suokkala mentioned in SA-kuva pictures - is it the one near Kaarlahti? Does anyone have any detailed info concerning where the positions of 40. Rask Ptri were there? As there was a concrete keskiö built there, it might remain till now. And gun positions could do - just help me finding them.
The Suokkala site, also known as A I (or A1) in the official Finnish documents, is the one refered to in my earlier post #72. Here's another drawing from the archives of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, this time from October 1944, showing the location of the two gun pits.

Suokkala_Riihipelto_1944.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 13 Oct 2021 18:23

Mangrove wrote:
13 Oct 2021 15:34
The Suokkala site, also known as A I (or A1) in the official Finnish documents, is the one refered to in my earlier post #72
- aha, now I see. Well, now we have to suggest where that concrete keskiö might be located providing we are not sure about location of the northern gun position...

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