Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

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Palg
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Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by Palg » 07 Dec 2021 11:42

Hello,

I came over some very detailed loss reports from the Karelian Front which I thought could be of interest to some on this forum. I have translated the 7th Army report for 21st of June until 31st of July 1944, it can be read here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

The original is here: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263350325

There are also two other reports, 32nd Army for 21st of June until 31st of July: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263350323
7th Army for 1st of August until 31st of August 1944: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263350329

There are also a lot of strength reports for the Karelian Front, this one from 25th of June 1944 shows the strength of most units involved: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263329057. Let me know if there is interest in translated versions of any of these reports.

regards,

Pål

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tramonte
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by tramonte » 21 Dec 2021 12:13

Very interesting. I'd like to see both table strength and actual strength and loss numbers of 7th and 32nd Army.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Palg
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by Palg » 29 Dec 2021 10:11

Hello Tramonte!

Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for some days. I have shared an Excel-file that contains monthly strength reports for the whole Karelian Front: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

There is one sheet for each Army and one for the Karelian Front reserves. Here is a list of the abbreviations used:

Infantry:
SK - Rifle Corps
LSK - Light Rifle Corps
SD - Rifle Division
Gv. SD - Guards Rifle Division
OAPB - Separate Army Machinegun Battalion
OLBR - Separate Ski Brigade
(O)MSBR - (Separate) Naval Rifle Brigade
UR - Fortified Region

Artillery:
APD - Artillery Breakthrough Division
AD - Artillery Division
PABR - Gun Artillery Brigade
PAP - Gun Artillery Regiment
OPAD - Separate Gun Artillery Battalion
KAP - Corps Artillery Regiment
GABR - Howitzer Artillery Brigade
GABR BM - Superheavy Howitzer Artillery Brigade
GAP - Howitzer Artillery Regiment
LABR - Light Artillery Brigade
Gorn. LAP - Mountain Light Artillery Regiment
MBR - Mortar Brigade
MP - Mortar Regiment
Gv. MBR - Guards Mortar Brigade (Katyusha)
Gv. MP - Guards Mortar Regiment (Katyusha)
IPTAP - Anti-Tank Artillery Regiment

Anti-Air:
Zen.AD - Anti-Air Artillery Division
AZAP - Army Anti-Air Artillery Regiment
(O)ZAD - (Separate) Anti-Air Artillery Battalion
ZAP/AP PVO - Anti-Air Artillery Regiment

Tanks:
Gv.TBR - Guards Tank Brigade
Gv.TPP - Guards Breakthrough Tank Regiment (KV tanks)
Gv.TP - Guards Tank Regiment
OTP - Separate Tank Regiment
OTB - Separate Tank Battalion
TSAP - Heavy Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment (ISU-152)
OMB ON - Amphibious Battalion
ODBP - Armoured Train

Regards,
Pål

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tramonte
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by tramonte » 30 Dec 2021 09:02

Thank you very much. I do really appreciate your kind translate work. Biggest surprise for me was the size of Guards infantry divisions (over 10,000 men strength). Was those numbers the actual strength or so called table strength, the "aim" of strength? 3 Guards rifle division strength in 21st Army were just little bit over 7,000 at the same time in Karelian Isthmus I think so? It has been for long time the strength of ordinary fortification region a mystery to me. Another surprise - it was around or almost strength of infantry brigade.
Last edited by tramonte on 30 Dec 2021 11:41, edited 2 times in total.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Palg
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by Palg » 30 Dec 2021 10:20

No problem, I am glad you found it interesting. All the numbers are actual strengths, the three Guard Divisions were Airborne divisions converted to infantry just before the Svir-Petrozavodsk Offensive, so they were almost at full strength. The table strength for the 10th Guards Division on the Murmansk Front was 11180 men while the Infantry Divisions of the Karelian Front were 9929 men. All divisions there were authorised a Separate Ski Battalion, so they had about 350 men more in table strength than Divisions without the ski battalion.

The Fortified Regions could vary in strength, the one in the 14th Army only had two battalions I think, while others could have up to 5 Machinegun-Artillery Battalions.

regards,

Pål

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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by Palg » 30 Dec 2021 10:56

Here is another Excel I have been working on, it is mainly focused on Infantry Companies with all the Company strengths I have found. The Units for Bagration are on the first sheet, but there are also sheets for Karelske Neset and Karelia. As you can see, the Divisions further south were much weaker than the ones in Karelia: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

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tramonte
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by tramonte » 30 Dec 2021 11:01

Thank you. Interesting. There was quite wide gap between strength of rifle division and another rifle division. What about numbers of mortar? Did those especially lightest (50 mm) mortars have even crew or were there just some kind of reserve kept in stocks? I guess the use of 50 mm mortars in 1944 was rather marginal. How about rockets? Are numbers units (Studebaker with tubes)?
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Palg
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by Palg » 30 Dec 2021 12:48

In Bagration they sent most of the reinforcements to the divisions that were doing the assault on the first day, divisions that were in reserve sometimes didn´t get any reinforcements at all. That was probably the case also in Karelia. I think the units that list 50mm mortars were using them, for instance in the Petsamo-Kirkenes Offensive it seems like the Light Corps that did the long marches and did not have much heavy artillery used 50mm, this was maybe also the case with divisions that were in terrain were the 50mm could be of use. In the south there are no 50mm mentioned in 1944.
I am unsure about the rocket numbers, I will see if i can find more details on them.

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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by tramonte » 14 Jan 2022 18:35

I have tracked lists of 7 VA (daily combat reports) to find aircraft losses of Karelian Front from 20 June to 11 August 44. Do you have any official list, like table of aircraft lost in combat?
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front


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tramonte
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Re: Red Army losses in Svir-Petrozavodsk Operation 1944

Post by tramonte » 21 Jan 2022 16:01

Palg wrote:
17 Jan 2022 22:21
I found some monthly reports for losses and replacement aircraft::
July: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263339555
August: https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=263356866
Unfortunately nothing for June.

Pål
Thank you very much. I have seen the July 44 report before. What's pretty interesting are some details like 22 Hurricane fighters written off (obsolete?) when 7 VA lost not a single in combat or in any flying mission. I have tracked list of combat daily reports of 7 VA during July 44 and according those reports for instance 57 Il-2 were reported lost. In table the number was 61. The difference 4 might have been non combat losses which do make sense. Also one should be very careful if claiming that Finns (AA and FiAF) shot down 57 Il-2s. More likely quite many Il-2s were lost without inflicted by Finns at all. From 1 July to 31 July i counted losses:

Bombers…...6 (in table 5)
Il-2………..57 ( in table 61)
Fighters…...17 ( in table 22)
other aircraft.....0 ( in table 5)

When it comes to June 44 i counted from daily reports these losses between 20 June and 30 June for 7 VA:

Bombers…...6 (one of them Il-4 mine-torpedo bomber of 1 GMTAB/VVS KBF )
Il-2………..32
Fighters…...11
(Shot down by AA: 27
Did not return: 20
Accident: 1
Air combat: 1)


Total 49 of which one was VVS KBF aircraft.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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