I searched some old hard disks and found out I have downloaded most (if not all) photos of Marttila's book when they were available about 10 years ago.
Photo of 152/45C at Ylläppää in 1943. (Source: Taavi Kainulainen collection)
RTR 4
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
I guess this is a gunpit at 60.72966, 30.53735 as the road connecting both gun positions and the fire control tower runs behind this position, if to look from Ladoga shore (as the picture is obviously made). So here the road is not visible. The same road runs on the other side (closer to Ladoga) of another gun position at 60.7323, 30.53703 and would be visible, if that position is pictured here. So the fire control tower is located further to the right and was not captured at this angle.
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
Terve guys,
Have you ever met any info concerning where exactly the battery on Saunaniemi was located? I mean like in sotapäiväkirjat or so?
I travelled there today, and the problem is that the area where the battery was most likely located is in private ownership now, fenced, and with no entry. So there is no chance to get there, and most likely nothing remained after major construction works made. Here is the picture for you better understanding:
The surroundings are overgrown with shrubs and low trees; it is possible to search there at more appropriate season, but it would be nice to know the reasons of doing that.
Hope to see your comments,
Have you ever met any info concerning where exactly the battery on Saunaniemi was located? I mean like in sotapäiväkirjat or so?
I travelled there today, and the problem is that the area where the battery was most likely located is in private ownership now, fenced, and with no entry. So there is no chance to get there, and most likely nothing remained after major construction works made. Here is the picture for you better understanding:
The surroundings are overgrown with shrubs and low trees; it is possible to search there at more appropriate season, but it would be nice to know the reasons of doing that.
Hope to see your comments,
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
I FOUND IT!
It all began, when I read in Erkki Marttila's book that "Jatkosodan aikana Mustaniemeen sijoitettiin kaksitykkinen kuuden tuuman Canet-patteri. Vanhoja, lähellä rantaa olleita heikkorakenteisia ja kevyemmälle kalustollekin tehtyjä tykkiasemia ei kuitenkaan nyt käytetty, vaan patteri sijoitettiin kenttälinnoitettuihin asemiin yli kilometri taaempana olevan, jyrkästi nousevan maatöyrään päälle." That was something new for me - I knew that the battery built in concrete in 1920 and equipped with 2 x 120 mm Armstrong guns was not used during Jatkosota, but I had no idea that new Canet battery was built instead on another place.
So I contacted Erkki and he suggested a place, where the battery could be. First attempt brought no result - nice pine forest perfect for walking, where plenty of mushrooms most likely grew a month ago, but no any trace of fortifications. It appeared later, that if I had walked just 200 m further along the ridge, I would find what I was searching for. But next time I decided to search along the whole ridge running for approximately 3 km in that area))). But I had not to walk so long as I found the battery right near the road. So here is the first gunpit at 60.95768, 30.32467:
And here is the second one at 60.95666, 30.32608:
It all began, when I read in Erkki Marttila's book that "Jatkosodan aikana Mustaniemeen sijoitettiin kaksitykkinen kuuden tuuman Canet-patteri. Vanhoja, lähellä rantaa olleita heikkorakenteisia ja kevyemmälle kalustollekin tehtyjä tykkiasemia ei kuitenkaan nyt käytetty, vaan patteri sijoitettiin kenttälinnoitettuihin asemiin yli kilometri taaempana olevan, jyrkästi nousevan maatöyrään päälle." That was something new for me - I knew that the battery built in concrete in 1920 and equipped with 2 x 120 mm Armstrong guns was not used during Jatkosota, but I had no idea that new Canet battery was built instead on another place.
So I contacted Erkki and he suggested a place, where the battery could be. First attempt brought no result - nice pine forest perfect for walking, where plenty of mushrooms most likely grew a month ago, but no any trace of fortifications. It appeared later, that if I had walked just 200 m further along the ridge, I would find what I was searching for. But next time I decided to search along the whole ridge running for approximately 3 km in that area))). But I had not to walk so long as I found the battery right near the road. So here is the first gunpit at 60.95768, 30.32467:
And here is the second one at 60.95666, 30.32608:
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
The guns were placed on temporary basements made with 4 layers of criss-cross logs tightened with long bolts or studs. The construction is perfectly visible here:
Some local idiots destroyed the central parts of the basements. Either they thought that there had to be a thick metal plate in the basement, which was traditionally used in Soviet batteries placed on temporary positions - that plate would be a valuable loot for scrap-hunters. Or they probably believed those were dugouts or munition storages - sealed and untouched! - where they hoped to find a pile of brand-new handguns or military decorations or any other valuables. So, the gun basements are damaged, but now you may see its construction.
The terrain around is pitted with trenches, bigger and smaller pits etc. - it was a real fortified area:
So thanks to Erkki Marttila for another discovery. Can you tell me the battery number of those two Canets?
Some local idiots destroyed the central parts of the basements. Either they thought that there had to be a thick metal plate in the basement, which was traditionally used in Soviet batteries placed on temporary positions - that plate would be a valuable loot for scrap-hunters. Or they probably believed those were dugouts or munition storages - sealed and untouched! - where they hoped to find a pile of brand-new handguns or military decorations or any other valuables. So, the gun basements are damaged, but now you may see its construction.
The terrain around is pitted with trenches, bigger and smaller pits etc. - it was a real fortified area:
So thanks to Erkki Marttila for another discovery. Can you tell me the battery number of those two Canets?
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ML
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Re: RTR 4
Nice finds again. The battery was 32.Rask.Ptri.Can you tell me the battery number of those two Canets?
Some notes from war diaries:
- 28.8.41 Order to transfer 2/152C with low gun mounts (naval type?) from Vahtiniemi to Mustaniemi. (Guns were actually installed at Mustaniemi in spring 1942.)
- 20.3.41 Colonel Järvinen decided the locations of new gun positions at Mustaniemi.
- 10.4.42 First gun was transferred from Käkisalmi to Mustaniemi.
- 1.5.42 Battery was named 32. Raskas Patteri.
- 9.5.42 First gun was ready for action.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4
Here are some November 1939 sketches and an aerial photograph from the archives of Kannaksen lohko / Laatokan meripuolustus. Originals at the National Archives of Finland, folder Perus-10141/1.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4
Some links to the war diary of Laatokan rannikkoprikaati:
- Position of Finnish coastal artillery in Ladoga Karelia on 30 July 1941. LINK
- Location of Linnoituspatteristo 1, 2 and 10 in Ladoga Karelia on 4 August 1941. LINK
- Position of Osasto Korvenheimo in Ladoga and Olonets Karelia on 11 August 1941. LINK
- List of units under Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati on 20 October 1941. LINK
- List of units under Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati in December 1941. LINK
- Map of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati artillery positions on 28 January 1942. LINK
- Communication lines of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati in January 1942. LINK
- Position of Finnish coastal artillery in Ladoga Karelia on 30 July 1941. LINK
- Location of Linnoituspatteristo 1, 2 and 10 in Ladoga Karelia on 4 August 1941. LINK
- Position of Osasto Korvenheimo in Ladoga and Olonets Karelia on 11 August 1941. LINK
- List of units under Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati on 20 October 1941. LINK
- List of units under Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati in December 1941. LINK
- Map of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati artillery positions on 28 January 1942. LINK
- Communication lines of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati in January 1942. LINK
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BarSeek
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Re: RTR 4
All they probably expected to loot were 24 2-inch threaded studs, total weight 770 kg. I guess they sold them immediately and died of ethanol overdozing leaving the massive ring of approx. same weight (720 kg) at the site. I took pictures in 2007, place showed no signs of recent activity but next year the ring was gone, cut by gas torch.Eugenius wrote: ↑24 Oct 2022 14:38Some local idiots destroyed the central parts of the basements. Either they thought that there had to be a thick metal plate in the basement, which was traditionally used in Soviet batteries placed on temporary positions - that plate would be a valuable loot for scrap-hunters.
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
Terve guys, hope you are doing well. During last 2 days we made another attempt to reach Haapaniemi and again with no result - blocked forest roads are getting overgrown with shrubs really fast, sometimes it's difficult even to walk there, not saying about driving. Probably we will make next attempt in autumn - set a camp in the evening in the closest point reachable by car in 10 km from the search area, spend a night and then walk, search the area and walk back. That will take a whole day. Another idea is to rent a motorboat in a tourist centre near Pisinjoki mouth and to try to reach Haapaniemi by water. However, it's still a question whether they have boats for rent, and the distance by water is 20 km one way.
Finally we decided to search for this 2/122K/31 battery:
We found a gunpit just near the road at 60.81882, 32.82986, but only one, and it looked totally different from previously seen 2/122K/31 positions. The shape could be described like "stretched polygon", banking is made of logs, no metal and no concrete on the bottom. The gunpit is rather large and deep - ca. 1,5 m now and obviously it was even deeper when built. Orientation to the south, along Ladoga shore.
Front wall view:
View to the left - ramp for bringing the gun in:
View to the right - a short trench leading to a shelter or cellar:
Top view of the shelter/cellar:
Finally we decided to search for this 2/122K/31 battery:
We found a gunpit just near the road at 60.81882, 32.82986, but only one, and it looked totally different from previously seen 2/122K/31 positions. The shape could be described like "stretched polygon", banking is made of logs, no metal and no concrete on the bottom. The gunpit is rather large and deep - ca. 1,5 m now and obviously it was even deeper when built. Orientation to the south, along Ladoga shore.
Front wall view:
View to the left - ramp for bringing the gun in:
View to the right - a short trench leading to a shelter or cellar:
Top view of the shelter/cellar:
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
Backside view:
Banking logs close-up:
Your suggestions concerning what it could be would be really appreciated. Location and orientation quite match the map mark, but no second gunpit. I saw wartime pictures of 122K/31 guns from Haapaniemi area, and some of those guns were placed without any basements, but in that case there were no banked gunpit made at all.
I still can add 3 more pictures to this post, so here they are - MG nest with [scrapped] rotating shield (https://www.sotahistoriallisetkohteet.f ... 9/area/91/):
I saw such MG nests in many places in Finland, there are shields taken from such nests in various museums in Russia too, but it was the first time when I saw nearly intact nest in Russia on its original place.
To Moderator: please relocate the part about MG nest to more appropriate thread of the forum, if necessary.
Banking logs close-up:
Your suggestions concerning what it could be would be really appreciated. Location and orientation quite match the map mark, but no second gunpit. I saw wartime pictures of 122K/31 guns from Haapaniemi area, and some of those guns were placed without any basements, but in that case there were no banked gunpit made at all.
I still can add 3 more pictures to this post, so here they are - MG nest with [scrapped] rotating shield (https://www.sotahistoriallisetkohteet.f ... 9/area/91/):
I saw such MG nests in many places in Finland, there are shields taken from such nests in various museums in Russia too, but it was the first time when I saw nearly intact nest in Russia on its original place.
To Moderator: please relocate the part about MG nest to more appropriate thread of the forum, if necessary.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4
Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13. Esikunta (SPK 21773):
"18 January 1943. I/3.Mt.K.Ptri [should be "R" instead of "K"?] transferred to winter positions south of Joensuu (X= 4482, y=9079)". "Joensuu" literally means "mouth of the river", i.e. the mouth of Pisinjoki River.
I've marked the position described on the war diary below in red using Obža. Pisi. Topografikartta 511310 map. The coordinates are roughly 60.820074, 32.829000.
"18 May 1943. [...] I/3.Mt.Rask.Ptri was transferred from the mouth of Pisijoki to Ukonniemi (2/122K/31)"18.1.43. I/3.MtKPtri siirtynyt talviasemiin Joensuun eteläpuolelle (X= 4482, y=9079)
Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13. IV linnakkeisto (SPK 21801):18.5.43. [...] I/3.Mt.Rask.Ptri siirrettiin Pisijoen suulta Ukonniemeen (2/122K/31)
"15 January 1943. [...] I/3.Mt.Rask.Ptri transferred to field artillery positions in Korsukangas".
3. Moottoroitu raskas patteri (SPK 18848):15.1.43. [...] I/3.Mt.Rask.Ptri siirtyi kt.asemiin Korsukankaalle.
"15 January [1943]. The right section transferred to the field artillery positions in Korsukangas area. Coordinates of the 1st cannon: x= 4482 y= 9079 Pr=30-00". 3000 "piiru" equals 180 degrees or facing south.
15.1. Oikea jaos siirtyi kenttätykkiasemaan korsukangas-alueelle. 1.tykin koordinaatit: x= 4482 y= 9079 Pr=30-00
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4
Mangrove, many thanks for your comments.
"The coordinates are roughly 60.820074, 32.829000" - I'm sure on 99 % that we searched there as well - the distance between your point and the point where we found the gunpit is about 150 m - could be just an error of co-ordinates' determination.
Second, if the second gun was really placed there, then fire direction of the battery would be westward - to Ladoga, while the scheme shows 2 guns with fire direction southward, and the gun position we found also had southward fire direction.
I hope I will go to Onega Lake in a couple of weeks, so I will try to visit that area again and to check the point you marked.
"The coordinates are roughly 60.820074, 32.829000" - I'm sure on 99 % that we searched there as well - the distance between your point and the point where we found the gunpit is about 150 m - could be just an error of co-ordinates' determination.
Second, if the second gun was really placed there, then fire direction of the battery would be westward - to Ladoga, while the scheme shows 2 guns with fire direction southward, and the gun position we found also had southward fire direction.
I hope I will go to Onega Lake in a couple of weeks, so I will try to visit that area again and to check the point you marked.