Yuri wrote:My question far not political.
At me greater doubts on number of losses of the Finnish army.
These doubts have under themselves the firm logic basis.
I also have stated this basis
Let's collect that basis together:
The Finnish army had 14 infantry divisions and 7 brigades.
It is considered to be, that two brigades are equivalent to one division. Then we receive, that the Finnish army had 17,5 divisions.
At the beginning of the Winter War Finnish army had 9 infantry divisions and 4 brigades. It also had 3 Field replacement divisions, which coinsisted with men without arms and with a very little training. As armaments situation improved and training progressed, these men were transported to the front, about half to replace losses and the rest forming new units.
At the beginning of the Continuation War Finnish army consisted 16 infantry divisions and 3 brigades. During the war the army was reorganized so, that in the end it consisted 14 infantry divisions, 7 brigades and 1 armored division.
Number of one Finnish division made, approximately, 18 thousand men. Hence, only one infantry Finns had had 315,0 thousand men.
As already pointed out by Martti Kujansuu, the Finnish infantry division was 14 200 men. The Soviet infantry division at the time of the Winter War was about 18 000 men.
However, in the Finnish army there were still special parts: artillery, an antiaircraft artillery, sappers, connection, supply and so forth. We shall add here military pilots and military seamen, and as frontier guards. It is necessary to remember and about spare and accessories.
Like Sami_K and Harri pointed out, most of the artillery, sappers(engineers), signal and supply were part of divisional structure. There were only 8 separate artillery batallions and 8 separate batteries which were under the corps command. The navy was 33 200, but it is including some of the army's units, as one infantry regiment was given to navy. The air force consisted only 300 planes, of which almost 200 were for training, and the total personnel was around 11 000.
All in all, Finnish armed forces were about 200 000 in the beginning of the war, and rose to 250 000 to the war's end, when foreign voluteers arrived and replacement units were trained and equipped.
It is impossible to forget and about, so-called, foreign volunteers whom was 11,5 thousand men.
Thus, when Molotov spoke, that the Finnish army totaled about 600,0 thousand men he most likely, has underestimated number of the Finnish army, than has overestimated.
Actually, in 1939 the Finnish army totaled more, than 600,0 thousand men.
Could you please cite a source about this claim?
This figure finds confirmation in the book "World war". In this book Vermaht's general-lieutenant Ditmar writes, the truth, about the Finnish army of the sample of 1941. However it is improbable, that the Finnish army of 1939 and the Finnish army of 1941 could strongly will distinguish.
Like Sami_K and others had pointed out, the Finnish army of 1939 was totally different from the army of 1941. After the Moscow peace treaty, Finns had over the year to train men and purchase equipment, so in the July 1941 the armed forces fielded 475 000 men, of which army had 353 000.
General-lieutenant Ditmar writes, that the population of Finland made 3,8 million person, and in lines of armed forces 18 % from an aggregate number of the population of the country that gives figure 684,0 of thousand men have been called.
It is possible to not doubt that the mobilization potential of Finland in 1939 was above, than in 1941. Hence V. Molotov was right, when spoke, that in 1939 the Finnish army totaled 600,0 thousand men.
Ditmar gives a little bit too high number for 1941, as the real numbers are 16% and 610 000 persons in war related jobs. Only those 475 000 were in armed forces, the rest were managing hospitals, offices etc. they included 43 000 women volunteers, 17 000 workers building fortifications and 97 000 reserved for civil defence like fire brigades, field fire defence, guarding bridges etc. (Some of those works were overlapping, why the numbers don't sum up.)
P. S. If, how us here assure, the Finnish army in Winter war has lost only 24,0 thousand killed there is a reasonable question and why, as a matter of fact, then the Finnish army capitulated on March, 12th, 1940? In fact, at Finns still more more than 600 thousand military men?
As was presented above, Finns didn't have more than 600 000 men. They had only 250 000 and were short of arms and ammunition.
To the beginning of March, 1940 against Finland were 46 divisions of Red Army are directed in total. This grouping had 800,0 thousand soldier and officers. From this 46 divisions of Red Army have taken participated in operations no more than 35 Soviet divisions.
Further, to the beginning of March, 1940 the Red Army has lost killed, missing, wounded and freezed more than 350,0 thousand person. Hence, in the beginning of March, 1940 against the Finnish army with number more than 600,0 thousand men operated no more than 450,0 thousand soldier and officers of Red Army.
The number of divisions is a little bit low, as Prof. Semirjaga had counted 52 divisions against Finns. The above number also miss 4 divisions of Finnish Democratic Republic, 10 brigades and number of separate regiments which were used.
Here I have to make query to Bair and other with more knowledge of Red Army: Didn't the Red Army receive replacement troops at all during the war?
Certainly, in Winter war of loss of the Finnish army there were less, than losses of Red Army. But the difference could not be so big as to us here draw.
It is impossible to believe that the Finnish army capitulated, having lost only 4-5 % from the aggregate number.
Perhaps that not understanding, but the one who confirms similar, offends the Finnish army and its brave the soldier.
Access to Russian archives is free. Whereas in the Finnish archives of an easy approach is not present about this day. And there, where access to the Finnish archives to eat, collect full data on losses of the Finnish army it is not obviously possible. It is necessary to think, that to Finns, unlike Russian, is what to hide.
24,0 thousand killed Finns during Winter war - this figure for propagation. Unfortunately, neither in Finland, nor in Germany, in any other country there is no capital historical work about losses armed forces. Such work is available only in Russia: it is capital work of the professor and the general-colonel G. F.Krivosheev " Russia and the USSR in wars of XX century. Losses of armed forces. Statistical research ".
In fact it is as big as presented.
The Finnish military burial tradition makes it impossible to hide excess casualties (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=84704
), and the database collected by veterans (http://tietokannat.mil.fi/menehtyneet/index_en.php3
) provides additional support to the official numbers. It is the size of the Finnish army which is exaggerated in your numbers.
Unfortunately Finnish military archives are written in Finnish, so it isn't so easy to understand, but like Ilmarinen stated, the access there is free. Unfortunately it seems to share common habit to Red Army archive that not all material are easily accessed.
P. P. S. In the summer and autumn of 1941 the Finnish armies and German 20-th army (army " Norway ") had in total more than 800,0 thousand men.
This Finnish and German grouping was resisted by Soviet 23th, 7th and 14th armies which had in total 147,0 thousand men.
Why in this case Finns and by means of Germans could not take in top above Russian if Russian perished six times more?
It at that Russian this time was almost five times less than their opponents.
Once again, here Soviet numbers don't contain all troops available, as a lot of personnel were located in smaller units and not in front line duties, like those which were counted in when Finnish/German numbers are presented.
Could you please point out where you disagree with me? I (and others) could try to find then additional information on the issue.