Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer 1944

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 22 Sep 2010 16:53

Esa K wrote: Almost convinced that the 27th Separate Tank Regiment had the type
I confirm this. It was initially equipped with T-34-85, but on 7 July 1944 additionally reicieved 13 T-34-76 from 152 Tank Brigade and 185 Tank Regiment as replacements.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1860
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Mangrove » 24 Sep 2010 08:58

More on the Churchills (Tulo 17788/17):
"June 30th 1944. [...] British-made Mark IV "Churchills" have been found to be used at the Western Karelian Isthmus. The same model have been used in small amount earlier in the German Eastern Front".
III Armeijakunnan Esikunta. [...] 30.6.1944. [...] Tilannekatsaus № 118 (1083). [...] 4. Hajatietoja. [...] Länsi-Kannaksella on todettu englantilaisia Mark IV "Churchill" ps.vaunuja, joita on myös Saksan itärintaman taisteluissa on aikaisemmin vähässä määrässä esiintynyt. [...]

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 24 Sep 2010 20:57

Regarding T-34-85: 98 Tank Regiment is said to have them on 25 June 1944, though some addtional confirmations are needed. Unfortunately, the staff of tank and mechanized forces of the 21 Army usually made no distinction (at least in those documents that I saw) between different modifications of T-34s. They also used SU-152 ans ISU-152 designations virtually interchangeably, which doesn't make things easier.

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1252
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Esa K » 02 Nov 2010 17:18

Hi

...was a time since your postings, so sorry for my delay, but thanks Art and Martti K for this additional info, very much appreciated.


Best regards

Esa K

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 14 Nov 2010 15:11

Adding some stuff to the thread: that is the number of operational tanks and SP guns in units of the 21 Army/Leningrad Front (9 June - 10 July 1944). Two tables (the first is pretty large):
http://i068.radikal.ru/1011/8b/98e4befe576f.jpg
http://s03.radikal.ru/i176/1011/18/670855b62466.jpg
These tables are compiled by me based on daily reports of the Staff of Tank and Mechanized Forces, 21 Army from TsAMO RF f.375, op.6675, d.278 and f.375, op.6675, d.359 ("Combat, operative and intelligence reports of 21 Army HQ's departments"). Date and time means the moment when report was compiled by the staff. It should be borne in mind that information from units was recieved with a certain time lag, especially in the period 17-20 June 1944. Reports of 16 and 21 June are absent in the folder. In case when a certain units was mentioned, but no data on the number of operational AFVs were presented, "n.a" stands in the respective cell. In case when nothing was said about the unit, the cell is left epmty. Totals are calculated be me, in case of incomplete information they should not be considered as having real value.
Hope this information will be interesting.

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1252
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Esa K » 15 Nov 2010 16:36

Hi
Art wrote:Hope this information will be interesting.
Interesting, thats the understament of this year. The info you provided is aboslutely fantastic...


Thank you very much

and best regards

Esa K

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 17 Nov 2010 22:22

An addition about the units and vehicles types. General N.I.Biryukov, who was one of the leading officers of the Main Tank Directorate from 1941 and onwards, kept a diary in which he recorder various information relating to this work. In May 1944 (most probably between 1 and 8 May) he recorded a minute of the report by leutenant colonel Martynov (chief of organizational depatment of the Tank and Mechanized Forces Staff) on planned allocation of tanks to the Leningrad Front. It was as follows:
1. Three heavy regiments of ISU-152 (63 pieces)
2. Two heavy IS tank regiments (42 tanks)
3. Four SU-76 regiments (84)
4. 50 KV tanks from repair.
5. 70 T-34 with 85 gun.
6. 20 SU-85
7. 20 SU-76
Total 349 pieces.
http://militera.lib.ru/db/birukov_ni2/32.html

Changes in the order of battle of the Leningrad Front show that this plan was carried out in many respects. Between 1 may and 1 June 1944 the Leningrad Front recieved:
26 and 27 Guards Tank Regiments (IS-2 aka IS-122)
394, 396, 397 Guards SP Artillery Regiments (ISU-152)
938, 952, 1222, 1238 SP Artillery Regiments (SU-76)
All units arrived from the Moscow Military District after formation or reorganization.
Apparently some number of T-34-85 were also sent as replacements for medium tank regiment. I'm quite sure that the 21 and 98 Tank Regiments were fully equipped with T-34-85 by the moment when they were committed to action, each having 21 tanks. I'm not so sure about 226 Tank Regiment. Study of the personnel losses of the regiment shows that as early as 14 June it had T-34s with 5 crewmen (commander, driver, gunner, gun-loader and radio-operator/machinegunner), which means that these were T-34-85 (T-34-76 had 4 crewmen). It doesn't answer the question whether all 21 T-34 were with 85-mm guns or not. Theoretically speaking provided that the plan recorded by Biryukov was carried out and the front recieved 70 T-34-85 then it would be enough to fully equip all the three regiment - 21, 98 and 226 - each with 21 tanks. So my assumption is that by 10 June all T-34s of the 226 TR were 85-mm models.

1439 SP Regiment was on the Leningrad Front since 1943, apparently the front recieved no ISU-152 as replacements in May 1944, so I believe SP guns this regiment had were old SU-152. The regiment also retained the old organization (shtat 010/482) with 12 SU-152 guns and 1 KV as a command vehicle. In late June the regiment recieved additional SP guns as replacemnts, I suppose these were new ISU-152s. Simultaneosly it was reorganized according to the shtat 010/461 (that was recorded in on of the reports), which meant 21 SP guns in the regiment.

Finally, 31 Guards Tank Regiment is said to have 21 KV-122 (sic!) on 25 June. That could be a simple mistake, but also it's possible that it recieved IS-122 (somtimes they were called that way). I don't have records after that day and the regiment didn't participate in action after 25th in any case.

larth
Financial supporter
Posts: 270
Joined: 14 Feb 2007 00:15

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by larth » 02 Jan 2011 13:48

Many thanks Art! Especially the info on the 226 TR was of interest to me. It means they had T-34-85 through the battles at Vuosalmi.

Does your sources state who the 152 Tank Brigade and the 1238 Self-propelled Gun Regiment were assigned to end of June / start of July?

best regards,
Lars

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 11 Jan 2011 21:07

I didn't work with documents of the 23 Army a lot, so I can't give much info about the 226 Tank Regiment. As follows from the record of personel losses it lost 5 T-34-85 with all their crews missing in action at Vusosalmi on 12 July. Probably there were other losses.
152 Tank Brigade was withdrawn from the frontline on 22 June 1944 to the reserve of the Leningrad Front to the region 1-2 km south-west of Häyry. On 23-25 June it remained in reserve south of Karhusuo. As for period after 25 June my records don't say anything about it. Presumably in remained in the same area in reserve of the front. On 29 June 2nd Tank Battalion was ordered to Sommee and attached to the 224 Rifle Division. Actually first elements arrived on 3 July and took part in landing on Suonionsaari and Teikarinsaari as it was allready mentioned in this topic.
1238 SP regiment was withdrawn for reorganization on 22 June as well. From 24 June it was attached to the 97 Rifle Corps operating at Saarela and Lavola areas. On 28 June it recieved an order to support 340 Rifle Regiment/46 Rifle Division crossing water barrier at Saarela and advancing along the road to Portinhoikka. On 29 It reached crossings south of the Portinhoikka crossroad. On 30 June - advanced along the road toward Juustila with 314 Rifle Regiment/46 Rifle Division. On 1-2 July the regiment supported attacks of elements of the 90 and 314 Rifle Divisions/108 Rifle Corps on Harjula. From 3 July in defense at Tahtela. No changes to 10 July.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 18 Mar 2011 19:36

Martti Kujansuu wrote:On the tactical numbers:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3566931
Uudet tiedot vih:n panssarien torninumeroista vahvistavat aikaisempia havaintoja. Käytettävissä olevan aineiston perusteella näyttää siltä, että seuraavat numerosarjat on jaettu alla luetelluille ps.yksiköille:
100-120. Ps.R 70. T-34. Tukenut Salmissa 272.D:aa.
121-186. 29.Ps.Pr. T-34 ja T-70. Ollut Loimolan suunnalla.
300-364. 7.Ka.Ps.Pr. T-34 ja T-70. "" Lemetin "".

500-520. Er.Ps.R. 222. T-34. "" Kannaksella.
521-?. Er.Ps.R 124. T-34. "" Kannaksella.
701-721. Ka.Lm.Ps.R 31. KV 1 ja JS 122. "" Kannaksella.
750-770. Er.Ps.R 27. T-34. "" "".
900-920. Er.Ps.R 226. T-34. "" "".
As an addition and partial correction the following tactical numbers were assigned to units of the Leningrad Front by the order of 16 May 1944
26 Guards Tank Regiment - from 1 to 49
27 Guards Tank Regiment - from 50 to 99
1 Tank Brigade - 100-199
152 Tank Brigade - 200-299
220 Tank Brigade - 300-399
30 Guards Tank Brigade 400-499
222 Tank Regiment - 500-549
124 Tank Regiment 550-599
260 Guards Tank Regiment - 600-649
46 Guards Tank Regiment - 650-699
31 Guards Tank Regiment - 700-749
27 Tank Regiment - 750-799
98 Tank Regiment - 800-849
82 Tank Regiment - 850-899
226 Tank Regiment - 900-949
185 Tank Regiment - 950-999
45 Tank Regiment - 1000-1049
221 Tank Regiment - 1050-1099
394 Guards SP Regiment - 1100-1149
396 Guards SP Regiment - 1150-1199
397 Guards SP Regiment - 1200-1249
1811 SP Regiment - 1250-1299
1439 SP Regiment - 1300-1349
1198 SP Regiment - 1400-1449
806 SP Regiment - 1450-1499
1294 SP Regiment - 1500-1549
1222 SP Regiment - 1550-1599
938 SP Regiment - 1600-1649
1238 SP Regiment - 1650-1699
952 SP Regiment - 1700-1749
1 Armored Cars Battalion - 1-24
3 Armored Cars Battalion - 25-49
4 Armored Cars Battalion - 50-74
49 Armored Cars Battalion - 75-100
The document can be found at TsAMO f.375, op. 6683, d.1, l.21
Note that some number apparently remained vacant. Karelian Front had its own system of tactical numbers.

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1252
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Esa K » 19 Mar 2011 00:28

Hi
Art wrote: As an addition and partial correction the following tactical numbers were assigned to units of the Leningrad...
Art, this is just FANTASTIC, thanks one more time for the info you earlier have provided, but this combined with that, this is just fantastic, we are closing in considering something really important... This is so important...


BEST REGARDS

Esa K

PS. and, Art, the earlier info in this thread you have provided is slowly (at least in my part of universe) and painstacly combined and intermingled with my old info to a new picture of the whole... DS.

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1252
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Esa K » 19 Mar 2011 00:57

Hi

Maybe I should had put this somewhere else, but... again...


... YES. YES YES... This is so helpful and totally fantastic info, for many readers it may only be a list of numbers, but what a fantastic list of numbers presented by Art, at least I am...


Thanks, Art, again


and best of regards

Esa K

User avatar
John Hilly
Member
Posts: 2593
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 09:33
Location: Tampere, Finland, EU

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by John Hilly » 19 Mar 2011 13:43

Very interesting info, Art! :D

There's, however, some contradictions referred to:
Ilja Mostsanski (Idon't know how to compose letter s with ^downwords!), "Kannaksen suurhyökkäys 1944 venäläisin silmin", Latvia 2010. Based on the Swedish translation by Bengt Eriksson, with Finnish commentary by Carl-Fredrik Geust, Erkki Käkelä and Esa Muikku.
Original work: "Sturm Karelskogo vala".
Art wrote:1 Tank Brigade - 100-199
Штурм...: 1. Red Banners Guards Tank Brigade: Picture of T34-76 number 236. The same tank is also photographed as damaged in Vyborg. In Art's list the unit shoud be 152. Tank Brigade?
Art wrote:30 Guards Tank Brigade 400-499
Штурм...: 30. Guards Tank Brigade: Picture of T34-76 number 154 in Vyborg with German Pz. IV Commander's cupola. In Art's list the unit shoud be 1. Tank Brigade?
Art wrote:27 Guards Tank Regiment - from 50 to 99
Штурм...: 27. Guards Heavy Breakthough Regiment: Pictures of IS2s in Vyborg, number 313 clarly visible and with two red stars on both sides of the number. In Art's list the unit shoud be 220 Tank Brigade - 300-399? But only 26. and 27. Guards Heavy Breakthough Regiments had IS2s!
Штурм...: 30. Guards Tank Brigade: Picture of T34-76 number 116 (vs. Art's 400-499) in Vyborg. In the turret also the Medal of the Red Banner and text: Ленинградец, "Leningradets", commanded by Guards lieutenant I. Mutsesky.
Art wrote:46 Guards Tank Regiment - 650-699
Штурм...: Caption: "British made MK IV Churchill IV tanks in Vyborg. Tanks belong to the 46. Guards Breakthrough Regiment. These units normally had 21 Heavy tanks and 2-3 light tracked vehichles. This unit had, however, six Churchill tanks and 32 KV1S tanks." Numbers are 646 and 647.

Instead, a KV1, model 1941, number 630 in a pic, belongs to the "right" 260. Guards Breaktrough Regiment.
Could it be, that the Churchills were originally in the 260th, but later transferred to the 46th?

With best regards
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

User avatar
John Hilly
Member
Posts: 2593
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 09:33
Location: Tampere, Finland, EU

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by John Hilly » 19 Mar 2011 13:49

A little bit off-topic:
Equipment of the armored units of the Karelian Front, on 20th July 1944, again T34s unspecified, can be found here:
TsAMO, fond 214, opis 102269 s., delo 17, l. 231-232.

Greets
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5684
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Soviet armoured units on Carelian Isthmus in the summer

Post by Art » 19 Mar 2011 17:38

John Hilly wrote: Штурм...: 30. Guards Tank Brigade: Picture of T34-76 number 154 in Vyborg with German Pz. IV Commander's cupola. In Art's list the unit shoud be 1. Tank Brigade?
That 30 GTBr had numbers from 4**series is confirmed by pictures of tanks that remained on the battlefield at Ihantala. I think its probable that it was 1 Tank Brigade indeed. Information on other tank brigades is better to be checked, of course.
Штурм...: Caption: "British made MK IV Churchill IV tanks in Vyborg. Tanks belong to the 46. Guards Breakthrough Regiment. These units normally had 21 Heavy tanks and 2-3 light tracked vehichles. This unit had, however, six Churchill tanks and 32 KV1S tanks." Numbers are 646 and 647.
46 Guards Tank Regiment wasn't at Vyborg or anywhere near Vyborg. These Churchills must belong to 260 Guards Tank Regiment, which seems to be confirmed by tactical numbers
Штурм...: 27. Guards Heavy Breakthough Regiment: Pictures of IS2s in Vyborg, number 313 clarly visible and with two red stars on both sides of the number. In Art's list the unit shoud be 220 Tank Brigade - 300-399? But only 26. and 27. Guards Heavy Breakthough Regiments had IS2s!
That is an interesting case. The regiment also had tanks with numbers (the ones that I know) 73, 124, 312, the last too were out of the prescribed range. I don't know why it was so. In late June the regiment received several IS tanks from other units, probably they could retain their old numbers.

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”