Defeat of Gladiators - 29 II 1940

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#16

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Aug 2006, 21:20

Harri wrote:Juha,
is that Yrjö Toivanen's study you mentioned in some book (or a book)?
I've got it as a 6 page photocopy.
I don't know whether that article has been publised at any book or magazine (an educated guess could be the magazine of Finnish Aviation Museum Society ).
There is also a book "Taivas repesi - Talvisodan tuhoisin ilmataistelu Ruokolahdella" (The Sky Rent - The Most Devastating Aerial Battle of the Winter War at Ruokolahti) by Maija Nevalainen and Pertti Saukkonen published by Ruokolahden Sotaveteraanit ry [The Veterans of Ruokolahti, reg. association] in 1998. It contains also interviews of eye-witnesses.
Thanks for the hint. I haven't read it, but it souds very interesting.
How do you rate it?

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#17

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Aug 2006, 21:34

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:I have no many sources about Soviet-Finnish war. Mirek the rights, the second part of the book does not contain descriptions of air fights - today I have looked it.

As to air fights - I know only one detailed book « Allies Luftvaffe » Michael Zefirov. It is published in Moscow in 2003. there are also some good stuff in Russian magazines. Are used given the Finnish historians - Keskinen and some other.

On overland battles are two volumes Soviet-Finland War 1939-1940 with the list of books published about this war with 1940 for 2002. Composers of the book Petrov and Stepakov.

The certain popularity the book Pavel Aptekar - « Soviet-Finland Wars". This book contains a lot of statistics. However it is engaged and shines war almost from the Finnish point of view. Interestingly, in Finland there are historians who showed Winter War from the Soviet point of view?

Sea battles are in books Aleksander Shirokorad. This author on the contrary is considered the most proRussian. But it states the facts precisely.

Best Regards!
Thanks Alex for the info.
in Finland there are historians who showed Winter War from the Soviet point of view?
Well...perhaps Helge Seppälä.

Regards, Juha


User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Roukolahti is interesting, is it not?, :-)

#18

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Aug 2006, 22:18

mirekw wrote:Hi
As I see the subject about Roukolahti is interesting as so far, :-)
Yes I think too that Myasitz from 68. OIAP was hit by Jutillainen in the morning it very good fit to the last one memories nad I have written this in material, crediting him damaging this I-16
Interesting and a bit confusing is that Keskinen and Stenman at the Ilmavoimat Talvisodassa ( FAF at the Winter War ) mentions the shooter (Masitsh/Myasitz) of GL-269( Kosola) belonging to 49. IAP
To Juha.
I wonder where these below data comming from (sources in Toivanen book).
From the interrogation reports of Ltn Volohov(itsh ?) and book(s) Бои в Финляндии I & II ( Finnish War ?)

Second question is about exact if there is in Toivanen, material sources for this Soviet memories from 1940-41. There are tens of memoreis and it is not easy to find this one about 68. OIAP (I know this e-book but I have not yet find the stroy from 68. OIAP)?
I don't know the exact story at that book.
If you find it, please let us know.

Regards, Juha
Attachments
finlandij.JPG
pic from A. Uitto book. Talvisota Puna-Armeijan silmin (Winter War thorough the eyes of Red Army)
Soviet maps, lists of manuals and books from Winter War era.
finlandij.JPG (49.34 KiB) Viewed 1459 times

mirekw
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 16:57
Location: Poland/Central Europe

68 OIAP or 49 IAP?

#19

Post by mirekw » 23 Aug 2006, 09:09

Hi to Juha and others
Yes I know about Kari Stenman materials and his statements about 49 IAP, many others also in the West, are repetadly confirmed this info too.
In my pinion this comming from the period before 1990 when there were not so open access to Soviat files (the top secret data) and, when one man said this 20-30 years ago later many without any hesitation say again this, ect.

Now, when it is easier to get some data from Soviet/Russian side, such info could be corrected, explained.
Much work has been done by C.F. Geust, who has made quite a lot own searches in Soviet archives. Kari Stenman is much more focused on own - Finnish side - he using data being supported by materials digged out by Geust - and he realy done terrible job in Russian archives to find many infor, see his Red Stars 5 about VVS KBF in Winter War with collarboration with 2 Russian authors. So the Russian mostly are usung his materials to supprt his own stories (like this tow volumes about Soviet-Finnish War).

This is expalantion about reason of existing this 49. IAP, which is wrong.
Miasitz was on the morning reccon sortie and his reccon let Soviet later to find Roukolahti on 29 II and at 12.00 they had made this devastating attack, according information given by Soviet pilots. Miasitz was in his regiment - 68 OIAP - high estimated by his reccon skills among others.

Regards
Mirek W

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

#20

Post by Harri » 23 Aug 2006, 09:52

Finnish losses on 29.2.1940 at Ruokolahti:

GL-269 Cpl(Res.) P. Kosola (KIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Pilot bailed out at low level
but parachute didn't open on time. Kosola was the son of the former Finnish leader of "Lapua Movement" Vihtori Kosola.

GL-268 M.Sgt V. Lilja (WIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Pilot bailed out but was
injured by serious burns.

GL-263 M.Sgt J. Tolkki (WIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Plane crashed but pilot
survived with only minor injuries. Tolkki flew Gladiators in LLv.16 during the early phases of the Continuation War.

GL-262 Lt. E. Halme (KIA) LLv.14?
(In some sources Halme is said to have been a pilot in LLv.16 which can't be correct to me because that squadron didn't have fighter flight. Halme was in conversion training in LLv.26.)
Shot down at Ruokolahti in aerial combat by Soviet fighters. Halme was killed by a MG fire hit to his head.

GL-259 Lt. C. Kristensen (KIA) LLv.26
Danish volunteer pilot was shot down at Ruokolahti by Soviet fighters.

GL-261 Lt. P. Christensen (WIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Danish volunteer pilot
bailed out but was injured by burns.

FR-94 Lt. T. Huhanantti (KIA) LLv.24
Mid-air collision with a Soviet fighter after wounding during aerial combat over (then) Ruokolahti (nowadays over Imatra). According to speculations Huhanantti would have rammed Soviet plane on purpose.

mirekw
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 16:57
Location: Poland/Central Europe

Some additinal info

#21

Post by mirekw » 23 Aug 2006, 18:03

Hi

"GL-269 Cpl(Res.) P. Kosola (KIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Pilot bailed out at low level
but parachute didn't open on time. Kosola was the son of the former Finnish leader of "Lapua Movement" Vihtori Kosola".

He was shot down in the morning combat by Miasitz, the rest losses were at 12.00-12.15. He was not shot down during the take off but during covering the landing after morning flight. Finns had just landed on the base (D.XXI + Galdiators). Gladiators made air covers for landing of D.XXI. See more Jutilainen memories, when he exactly written this episod and his combat with Sovites- Miasitz.

So the 1+ 6 losses FAF during 2 combats versus pilots of 68. OIAP.

Regards,
Mirek W

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: 68 OIAP or 49 IAP?

#22

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Aug 2006, 07:53

mirekw wrote:This is expalantion about reason of existing this 49. IAP, which is wrong.
Miasitz was on the morning reccon sortie and his reccon let Soviet later to find Roukolahti on 29 II and at 12.00 they had made this devastating attack, according information given by Soviet pilots. Miasitz was in his regiment - 68 OIAP - high estimated by his reccon skills among others.

That's how I have understood the events too.

About 68.OIAP (29th Feb -40) according Yrjö Toivonen:
- 4 Eskadril
- Belonged to 13. Army AF, which was led by F.P. Polyhin
- Base at the ice of Lake Lempaala ( Лемболово, Lembolovo )
- Regiment commander Major V.V. Zelentsov
- Vice Commader Major Jakov Gill
- Regiment commissar L. I Jakovenko
- Eskadril leaders (see my earlier post)

- Other pilots:
Senior Ltn Ivanov
Senior Ltn Plotnikov
Ltn Terpugov
Ltn Poluhin
Ltn Volohovitsh
Pilots Ohotnikov and Gontarenko

Regards, Juha

mirekw
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 16:57
Location: Poland/Central Europe

What about Soviet claims at 12.00?

#23

Post by mirekw » 24 Aug 2006, 09:15

Hi
Thanks Juha for next info
I wonder, what about Soviet climes after the combat at 12.00-12.15 (Soviet one hour later)
I have written that after the mission Soviat at all had claimed about 20 victories over FAF - overestimation but obvious.

In the morning there were only 2 claimed victories


Regards
Mirek W

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Re: Some additinal info

#24

Post by Harri » 24 Aug 2006, 10:19

mirekw wrote:
Harri wrote:GL-269 Cpl(Res.) P. Kosola (KIA) LLv.26
Shot to fire at Ruokolahti during take off by Soviet fighters. Pilot bailed out at low level
but parachute didn't open on time. Kosola was the son of the former Finnish leader of "Lapua Movement" Vihtori Kosola.
He was shot down in the morning combat by Miasitz, the rest losses were at 12.00-12.15.
That is true. In Finnish sources this case is usually "bundled" with the other ones although it's a separate case. This one and the larger raid some hours later are although connected with eachothers.
mirekw wrote:He was not shot down during the take off but during covering the landing after morning flight. Finns had just landed on the base (D.XXI + Galdiators). Gladiators made air covers for landing of D.XXI. See more Jutilainen memories, when he exactly written this episod and his combat with Sovites- Miasitz.
Have to check this. I don't remember the case so well right now.

(I have a slight idea he was already landing when he noticed Soviet fighters, took off immediately again and was shot down. Or was that Tolkki's case? There are several years I have red about the case.)

Anyway, sometimes "cut and paste" can cause non-desired effects... :oops:
mirekw wrote:So the 1+ 6 losses FAF during 2 combats versus pilots of 68. OIAP.


Yep.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: OK

#25

Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Aug 2006, 22:07

Hi Harri.
Harri wrote:GL-262 Lt. E. Halme (KIA) LLv.14?
(In some sources Halme is said to have been a pilot in LLv.16 which can't be correct to me because that squadron didn't have fighter flight. Halme was in conversion training in LLv.26.)
Halme was a pilot of LLv.16 and was in conversion training in LLv.26 because of the planned Gladiator transfer to LLv.16.



Hi Mirek,
mirekw wrote:Yes there were on Soviet side i-16 and I-153, but I do not have any information from Soviets about any loss among I-153 - could be damaged but not lsot.
In fact there was maybe deliberate or not deliberate crash in the air. Soviet say about ramming, I think about rather not deliberatly crash in air.
Soviet Pilot had returned on damaged planes to the base - it was sen. leytnant Yakov Mihin from 2./68 OIAP, in D.XXI was killed Finnish ace (6 victories) of 3./LLv 24 (there are a photo of him in my story) from Kari Stenman collection.

Soviet lost 2 I-16 (one pilot KIA, second one - PoW) the 7 were damaged fighters including Mihin's plane. He laned in onw base and later got Soviet medal of Red Banner for Winter War. Soviet killed pilot was senior leytan D.P. Yefimov of 1./68 IAP - he was escadrila commander, POw was leytant Volohov.
I've been reading this and that about the Ruokolahti battles.
What mostly puzzles me at the moment are questions about Yefimov:
-what plane did he fly with
-what eskadril he led
-how he lost his life
(-what are your sources)

About Senior Ltn Mihin and his claimed taran victory over Ltn Huhanantti some (info) can be found here: http://aeroram.narod.ru/

Regards, Juha


P.S. Here two pics from "Vaipuneet Kotkat" ( "Fallen Eagles") by Pekka Karunki, published 1940
Attachments
ruokolahti.kosola.2.JPG
ruokolahti.kosola.2.JPG (41.85 KiB) Viewed 1261 times
ruokolahti.tatu.jpg
ruokolahti.tatu.jpg (36.38 KiB) Viewed 1261 times

mirekw
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 16:57
Location: Poland/Central Europe

some info

#26

Post by mirekw » 27 Aug 2006, 07:51

Hi

some explanation

"What mostly puzzles me at the moment are questions about Yefimov:
-what plane did he fly with
-what eskadril he led
-how he lost his life
(-what are your sources)"

1. I think I-16, Russian given 2 I-16 lost + 7 damages (no info about exatcte dmaged types)
2. He was leading 1 Escadrila of 68. OIAP - 1./68 OIAP
3. KIA in combat with most probably Galdiator (only credited victory to FAF pilot - well know name)
4.. I have found this in Russian materials + supprted by one Russian friend (claryfication of data, cross-checking material)

Mihin victory is wrong given in the picture of this web (I-153 rammed D.XXI) and later in the text is:
"Участник советско-финляндской войны 1939-1940 годов. В одном из воздушных боёв на [color=darkred]истребителе И-16[/color] таранил финский самолёт. Свой самолёт с обломанной плоскостью довёл до аэродрома и совершил посадку."
He was in I-16 and returned with broken/damaged wings to the base and landed.

Regards,
Mirek W

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#27

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Aug 2006, 17:04

Hi Mirek,

According to the sources I have read Sgt Suikkanen ( GL-256 ) shot down a I-16 and the Soviet pilot parachuted from it. That indicates the pilot being Ltn Volohov(itsh).
Mirek wrote:I wonder, what about Soviet climes after the combat at 12.00-12.15 (Soviet one hour later)
I think that the actual combat was a little bit later ( about 12.15 - 12.30)
I'll try to check this later.
Mirek wrote:I have written that after the mission Soviat at all had claimed about 20 victories over FAF - overestimation but obvious.

In the morning there were only 2 claimed victories
That's what I've read too.
The Finnish claims after the attack were about 8 Soviet planes downed . Later they have been reduced to 2 or 3 planes shot down.

Some sources mention that the misidentification of the Soviet plane types ( reported as bombers) was because they had drop tanks ( perhaps looked from distance as multi-engine planes).
Do you know did the Soviet planes carry drop tanks at that mission?

Regards, Juha

mirekw
Member
Posts: 234
Joined: 16 Aug 2006, 16:57
Location: Poland/Central Europe

Next data

#28

Post by mirekw » 27 Aug 2006, 18:13

Hi Juha
I have to check it to (the parachute of Sovist pilot).

I think accroding Kari Stenman that combat was at 12.00-12.15 - Finnish time (Soviet is one hour later). The combat lasted anyway about 15 minutes.

Where do you have info about 12.15.12.30 from?

Yes I have written the same - 8 claimed victores by Finns in the second battle, reduced to 2 later.

I do not think that I-16 carried any drop tank. This was a modification intriduced on I-16 type 18 (M-62 engine) and later version, and I think that 68. OIAP had typ 10. I-153 could carred drop tanks as more moder fighter (second part of 1939).

Second the fighter with he drop takns had been attached as an escort to the bomber force formation. In this case Soviet had "easy" job - assoult air base, not far way from own base. It was not neccesary to have aditional (and If 68. OIAP had later version then typ 10, in my assumption they could have typ 10)

Regrads
MirekW

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Next data

#29

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Aug 2006, 22:26

Hi Mirek,
mirekw wrote:Where do you have info about 12.15.12.30 from?
Jorma Sarvanto at his book Hävittäjälentäjänä Karjalan taivaalla (As fighterpilot under Karelian sky) from 1941 mentions that after the alarm, the planes (Fokkers) took off "about 12.10". The Fokkers started before the Gladiators and managed to get up quite well before the 68.OIAP came.

I do not think that I-16 carried any drop tank. This was a modification intriduced on I-16 type 18 (M-62 engine) and later version, and I think that 68. OIAP had typ 10. I-153 could carred drop tanks as more moder fighter (second part of 1939).

Second the fighter with he drop takns had been attached as an escort to the bomber force formation. In this case Soviet had "easy" job - assoult air base, not far way from own base. It was not neccesary to have aditional (and If 68. OIAP had later version then typ 10, in my assumption they could have typ 10)
Ilmari Juutilainen at his book Punalentajien Kiusana (So We Harassed the Red Pilots) from 1956 (also availlable in english as Double Fighter Knight ) mentions when chasing Masitsh/Myasitz & co (Blinihin and Kuljman ) that the I-16 had "fixed undercarriage" (skis I believe, JT). would that indicate them as typ 5 or 6 ? Perhaps both new and old types at the Regiment?
At the Finnish sources there are mentions that the attacking Soviet planes were not typically white or green paineted, but "brightly painted". Do you know more about that?

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002, 12:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Re: OK

#30

Post by Harri » 28 Aug 2006, 09:30

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Harri wrote:GL-262 Lt. E. Halme (KIA) LLv.14?
(In some sources Halme is said to have been a pilot in LLv.16 which can't be correct to me because that squadron didn't have fighter flight. Halme was in conversion training in LLv.26.)
Halme was a pilot of LLv.16 and was in conversion training in LLv.26 because of the planned Gladiator transfer to LLv.16.
That puzzles me really because only LLv.12 and 14 were converting to Gladiators. I think LLv.16 might be a mistake here simply because AFAIK LLv.16 wasn't under conversion to Gladiators (it received them much later) and it didn't have a fighter flight during the Winter War. So, either Halme was the pilot of LLv.16 and was to be transferred to either LLv.12 or 14 of which new fighter flights were to be equipped with Gladiators or then LLv.16 is not correct (it's a spelling mistake). I have not managed to confirm that information anywhere. IIRC LLv.16 is mentioned in Hyvönen's book but not in the book I mentioned above. It was not unusual that pilots were transferred between flights and squadrons.

Without better information it is maybe "the safest" to call him the pilot of LLv.26... :roll:

Post Reply

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”