Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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JTV
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 06 Jan 2010 21:58

Denis1973 wrote:So, given even with this figures from finnish side (2,623 and 473), we have about 3100 of all losses. Far from 12000... And I suppose that figure from TsAMO (1392 men istead of claimed 2623) is more historically correct.
JTV wrote:The Soviet unit that did earlier unsuccessful attacks to Teikarinsaari and Melansaari Islands in 4th of July was 160th Infantry Regiment of 224 Division. This regiment nominal strenght of 1,266 men, from which 1,135 men took part in these attacks which resulted it losing 1,027 men.
Jarkko

Is this a finnish counts? And who seized both islands in the result? Dead men?


I stronly suggest reading again what I wrote, before you go into that line. The particular unit didn't seize the island. As mentioned the numbers are obviously from Soviet sources. In case you didn't figure it Juri Kilin is a Russian historian. The Soviet unit that succeeded capturing Teikarinsaari Island 5th of July was 406th infantry regiment, but that was after 160th infantry regiment had already tried day earlier (4th of July) and failed suffering those losses.

As for overclaiming - both sides did it in these battles. The Soviets claimed to have buried 900 Finnish soldiers in Teikarinsaari Island after capturing it - while the Finnish troops defending the island had only about 300 men KIA, from which dozens died while on water and therefore were not likely buried there.

Jarkko
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Jan 2010 22:09

Niilo Lappalainen at his "Viipurinlahti Kesällä 1944" (Bay of Viipuri/Vyborg at Summer 1944) mentions the the losses of German 122 Div being 50 KIA and 216 WIA.
The Estonian manned Finnish infantry regiment 200 suffered 17 KIA and 32 WIA

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Re:

Post by Art » 11 Jan 2010 16:19

Harri wrote:30.6./1.7. Teikarsaari (Teikari) island: RTR 22 repelled a Soviet invasion of about six battalions, five Soviet battalions were completely destroyed

In fact the group which landed on Teikarsaari on 1 July 1944 consisted of one battalion/185 Rifle Regiment/224 Rifle Division and a recon company of the 260th Marine Brigade. One subchaser (#506) was lost to mines during landing. The landed group was defeated but partly picked up by naval crafts.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Slava_M » 12 Jan 2010 11:32

JTV wrote:
Slava_M wrote:One reading Russian could try to make an estimation studying documents about losses from Central Archive of the Ministry of Defence at http://www.obd-memorial.ru/
For example, one interesting document
http://www.obd-memorial.ru/Image2/getimage?id=6648832
224 RD unreturnable losses (KIA, MIA, some of DOW) 30.06 - 10.07.1944 - 1392 men.
One should assume that some losses had suffered not only 124 and 224 RD, but also 260 Marine Inf. Brigade, Red Banner Baltic Fleet and many minor units.


The book doesn't mention 260th Marine Infantry Brigade in this battle.

Jarkko


If one can use cyrillic letters on your PC one can try to use http://www.obd-memorial.ru/ by input "Шестернин Николай Константинович 1944" into the main search line.
You will obtain 2 lists (possibly with close or almost the same data) of Red Banner Baltic Fleet losses during June-July 1944. The lists are rather difficult to read and understand (one - hand-written) and consists of data of mixed different units and dates. But there are at least 56 soldiers of 260th Mar.Inf.Brig. KIA and MIA on Teikarsaari during 03.07.1944 (!) plus several soldiers of otner units (Viborg sector, SNiS, BKA-99) with the same date and place.
This topic is interesting for research but I'm not a specialist in Fleet fightings. Hope someone will study these lists.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JariL » 12 Jan 2010 16:33

Hi,

I wonder if all the men who participated in the landings were listed in any unit. Finns took some prisoners during the fighting and the youngest was 15 years old and the oldest 60+ if I remember correctly what I've read. Of course it is possible that the said prisoners were part of a boat crew for example or survivors from a sunken/damaged vessel.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 12 Jan 2010 18:48

I decided to check some other of my books. According Koivisto ja Viipurinlahti (Koivisto Island and Viipurinlahti Gulf) by Lyytinen, Reponen, Pohjavirta and Hukari page 268 at least 1st Battalion of 260 Marine Infantry Brigade took part in these battles.

BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944? According inteviews of Soviet POWs there were two versions of these barges. Here is some info about them:
- Small: Length 12 meters, transport capacity about 20 - 30 men
- Large: Length 25 meters, transport capacity about 60 men, two 7.62-mm machineguns (one in bow and another in aft). Height about 3.4 meters.

Jarkko
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Re: Re:

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2010 12:10

Art wrote:In fact the group which landed on Teikarsaari on 1 July 1944 consisted of one battalion/185 Rifle Regiment/224 Rifle Division and a recon company of the 260th Marine Brigade. One subchaser (#506) was lost to mines during landing. The landed group was defeated but partly picked up by naval crafts.
Niilo Lappalainen at his Viipurinlahti kesällä 1944 (Bay of Viipuri, Summer 1944) mentions, according to the captured personel and material, the Soviet forces being the 3rd battalion of the 185th Rifle Regiment (landed 010744 at ca. 0030 hours at Finnish time) and a company led by captain Zukurov from 260th Marine brigade (landed ca 0800 Finnish time).
According to the book the Soviet casualties were ca. 250 KIA at the island, 76 POW.
+ unknown number of KIA at the boats and at water.
Finnish losses were 32 KIA and 85 WIA.

If the 260th Marine Brigade unit had landed at the same time as the 185th Rifle Brigade unit, the invasion might well have succeded, and prevented a lot of Soviet later losses.

The Island battles turned out to be sort of pyrrhic victory to the Soviet side.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2010 12:16

JTV wrote:I decided to check some other of my books. According Koivisto ja Viipurinlahti (Koivisto Island and Viipurinlahti Gulf) by Lyytinen, Reponen, Pohjavirta and Hukari page 268 at least 1st Battalion of 260 Marine Infantry Battalion took part in these battles.
Acording to Jatkosodan Historia 5 (History of the Continuation War vol. 5) the 260 MarineInfantry Regiment also operated at Uuras-Ravansaari area.

JTV wrote:BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944? According inteviews of Soviet POWs there were two versions of these barges. Here is some info about them:
- Small: Length 12 meters, transport capacity about 20 - 30 men
- Large: Length 25 meters, transport capacity about 60 men, two 7.62-mm machineguns (one in bow and another in aft). Height about 3.4 meters.
There are some photos at Niilo Lappalainen book Viipurinlahti kesällä 1944

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 13 Jan 2010 16:15

JTV wrote:I decided to check some other of my books. According Koivisto ja Viipurinlahti (Koivisto Island and Viipurinlahti Gulf) by Lyytinen, Reponen, Pohjavirta and Hukari page 268 at least 1st Battalion of 260 Marine Infantry Brigade took part in these battles.

I've seen no info in secondary sources about participation of 260 Marine Brigade in landing operation other than Koivisto (21-23 June 1944) and already mentiond landing on Teikarsaari on 1 July 1944. By the way, there is list of fallen personnel of the Baltic Fleet, whose memorial sign was installed on the territory of modern Bailtiysk, Kaliningrad oblast' here (memory book of the Kalinigrad oblast', Vol. 21):
http://formulyar-polka.narod.ru/t21/tom21-morBF.htm
From what I see in the period of interest losses of the 260 Marine Brigade occured almost exclusively on two days: 22 June 1944 (that must be Koivisto archipelago) and 3 July 1944 (by all probability losses in the Vyborg Gulf). As concerns the latter category there are names of 55 marines, btw one of them was a girl - Maria Trischenko, b. 1922. All are from 1st Battalion/260 Marine Brigade, all were reported missing on 3 July 1944. I think it can be assumed with a very high probability that these are losses that occured at Teikarsaari on 1 July 1944, and the date is simply given with mistake (I've seen mistakes of that kind - there were cases when a person was reported lost on one day in a unit's report, but in a memory book he is listed as killed on a slightly different date). That is even more probable, given the fact that no significant landing occured on 3 July. It doesn't appear fromt the list that the Marine Brigade participated in major operations after 3 July. It can be added that the list conatains names of 7 soldiers killed onboard of No. 506 large subchaser on 1 July during the first landing on Teikarsaari, see above.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 13 Jan 2010 16:21

JTV wrote:BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944?

There was a small number of twin-barges (or "tenders" as they were called by Soviet sailors), used to land tanks. Some number of T-26 light tanks was landed on Suonionssari island on 4 July and Teikarsaari on 5 July.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2010 20:21

JTV wrote:BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944?



I think these might be the smaller types (ca.10-14m) http://hobbyport.ru/other/ships/tender.htm :

Image
Landing at Piisaaari (Koivisto)
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2010 20:55

Art wrote:
JTV wrote:BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944?

There was a small number of twin-barges (or "tenders" as they were called by Soviet sailors), used to land tanks. Some number of T-26 light tanks was landed on Suonionssari island on 4 July and Teikarsaari on 5 July.


According to Lappalainen, 4 tanks (from 152th Tank Brigade?) were sent to Teikarsaari.

T-26 at Suonionsaari:
Image
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps ... 44N.htm#KF
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 13 Jan 2010 21:29

Juha Tompuri wrote:I think these might be the smaller types (ca.10-14m) http://hobbyport.ru/other/ships/tender.htm :


Thanks Juha, I have seen the drawing based to POW interrogation earlier, but not the other materials. The webpage is a truly excellent source.

Jarkko

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 Jan 2010 21:49

JTV wrote:Thanks Juha, I have seen the drawing based to POW interrogation earlier, but not the other materials. The webpage is a truly excellent source.
"Information not shared is lost ", as the Forum motto goes :)

Other Finnish related tender actions at that site are the Tuulos landing operation and as new to me the river Syväri/Svir crossing.
I must say I didn't know earlier about the participation of the Naval crafts at that Soviet amphibious operation.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 18 Jan 2010 16:37

Juha Tompuri wrote:According to Lappalainen, 4 tanks (from 152th Tank Brigade?) were sent to Teikarsaari.

The same number was lannded on Suonionsaari on 4 July, it's not excluded that these were the same tanks. As concerns landing crafts, by the start of the landing operation (1 July) the skerry ships detachments of the Baltic Fleet (captain 1st rank Feldman), used to land troops, consisted of 2 ferries (coupled tenders), 32 tenders, and 30 cutters (13 "KM" tupe and 17 "ZIS" type), that is from the history of the Batlic Fleet. On 4 July this detachments was divided by two groups: the first, consisting of 16 tenders and 20 cutters landed 160th Rifle Regiment on Teikarssari and the second - 2 ferries, 14 tenders, 19 cutters - 143rd Rifle Regiment on Suonionsaari. It seems that one ferry, consisting of a couple of barges, could carry 2 light tanks.

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