Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Jan 2010 20:58

Art wrote: As concerns the latter category there are names of 55 marines, btw one of them was a girl - Maria Trischenko, b. 1922.
Niilo Lappalainen at his book mentions about two Soviet women at Teikarsaari 1st July.
Other found by Finnish troops as KIA and the other WIA and POW.
Both supposed to have been nurses. No names mentioned.
Art wrote: It can be added that the list conatains names of 7 soldiers killed onboard of No. 506 large subchaser on 1 July during the first landing on Teikarsaari, see above.
Here is a list of (other) major vessel type losses:
http://navy-memory.ru/ml/k53.html

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Jan 2010 21:03

Thank you Art for the detailled info.
Art wrote:The same number was lannded on Suonionsaari on 4 July, it's not excluded that these were the same tanks. As concerns landing crafts, by the start of the landing operation (1 July) the skerry ships detachments of the Baltic Fleet (captain 1st rank Feldman), used to land troops, consisted of 2 ferries (coupled tenders), 32 tenders, and 30 cutters (13 "KM" tupe and 17 "ZIS" type), that is from the history of the Batlic Fleet. On 4 July this detachments was divided by two groups: the first, consisting of 16 tenders and 20 cutters landed 160th Rifle Regiment on Teikarssari and the second - 2 ferries, 14 tenders, 19 cutters - 143rd Rifle Regiment on Suonionsaari. It seems that one ferry, consisting of a couple of barges, could carry 2 light tanks.
Seems that the tanks were landed at quite late part (at least at Teikarinsaari) of the fighting as according to Lappalainen, there is only one Finnish observation of one of them there.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 19 Jan 2010 14:12

"On the next day [5th July] by the order of the 59th Army's commander on east and west coasts of Teikarssari were landed two reserve assault battalions with 4 T-26 tanks, and at 16.30 - another two battalions" (history of the Baltic Fleet). I haven't found more detailed description of operations on 5th July, so I can't provide better information on who made what and when.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 19 Mar 2010 14:42

JariL wrote: I wonder if all the men who participated in the landings were listed in any unit. Finns took some prisoners during the fighting and the youngest was 15 years old and the oldest 60+ if I remember correctly what I've read.
And is it possible to find out from what units the prisoner were taken and in what numbers? The losses lists of Soviet units are available online, it would be possible to compare them with Finnish data.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by igorr » 20 Mar 2010 07:23

According to Chronick KBF (1951), on 11.00 5.7.44 on Teikarssari was landed one assault reserve battalion and one rifle battalion. No mentions about second landing on that day. Landing was done on south and south-east side of island. There was strong opposition for landing from enemy artillery and mortars. On 14.00 enemy began to retreat under pressure of soviet troops. Ships go to north part of island and prevent arrivaing enemy reinforcements. 15.16 MBK-503 sunk one cutter with infantry. On 17.00 Ju88 bombed MBK's and BMO's. By 21.00 Teikarssari was cleared from enemy.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Mar 2010 10:30

Art wrote:
JariL wrote: I wonder if all the men who participated in the landings were listed in any unit. Finns took some prisoners during the fighting and the youngest was 15 years old and the oldest 60+ if I remember correctly what I've read.
And is it possible to find out from what units the prisoner were taken and in what numbers? The losses lists of Soviet units are available online, it would be possible to compare them with Finnish data.
Niilo Lappalainen at his book Viipurinlahti kesällä 1944 (Bay of Viipuri Summer 1944) mentions that they were from 1st Battalion of Infantry Regiment 143 (224 Div. ?) , captured at Soviet ca. 0900 hours started landing against German defended (I/409/122 Infantry Division) Harjuniemi 9th July 1944.
The battle was over by 1100 hours and 12 POW's were taken, of them: two 10-year old, two 15-year old and one 60-year old.


This photo perhaps is related to the issue:
Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1014282
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 21 Mar 2010 11:31

The 143rd Rifle Regiment didn't show men missing in action on 9 July in its lists - only killed or drowned. Yet it's possible that some actually became prisoners. There are men born in 1897, 1896, 1895, but not 60 or 15 years old - I doubt that combatants of that age could be present in numbers.
Is there any info on prisoners from the 622 Rifle Regiment? It lost quite a number men as missing on 9 July.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 21 Mar 2010 11:33

igorr wrote:According to Chronick KBF (1951), on 11.00 5.7.44 on Teikarssari was landed one assault reserve battalion and one rifle battalion.
Are there additional details on landing on 30 June/1 July in that source?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by igorr » 21 Mar 2010 17:37

A lot of them. Look at 1/7/44
Image

I don't know, what island is Harjuniemi, but that day was landing on Koivusaari and Essaari. First was secured by 11.47. On second island was secured only bridgehead, but on next day all operations on Vyborg island was postponded and there no reports about Essaari troops. By landing on 9.7 5 tenders and 2 SKA was sunk and 3 more tenders beached.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Mar 2010 19:35

igorr wrote:I don't know, what island is Harjuniemi, but that day was landing on Koivusaari and Essaari.
Niemi = cape
Saari = island

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 27 Mar 2010 13:00

igorr wrote: I don't know, what island is Harjuniemi, but that day was landing on Koivusaari and Essaari. First was secured by 11.47. On second island was secured only bridgehead, but on next day all operations on Vyborg island was postponded and there no reports about Essaari troops. By landing on 9.7 5 tenders and 2 SKA was sunk and 3 more tenders beached.
The landing on Koivusaari and Essari was performed by the 622 Rifle Regiment/124 Rifle Division in cooperation with the landing group of the Baltic Fleet (12 tenders and 6 smoke-laying cutters ). Simultaneously another group (a battalion of the 143rd Rifle Regiment) on ships of the second landing detachment (6 tenders and two smoke-laying cutters) tried to seize Karpilla peninsula on the mainland, but was repulsed by fire, losing 2 tenders destroyed and 4 damaged. Does you source mention the second landing?
Thank you for the scan you posted here.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by igorr » 27 Mar 2010 14:15

First group from 2 strenghtened companies 124 r. division must land on Koivusaari (1 company), Essaari (2 platoons) and Niemenlautta peninsula (1 platoon). There was 12 tenders, 6 SKA D-3 type and one MO-boat.
Second group from 224 r. division must land near Karpilo.
Landing on Koivusaari was succesful, near Essaari was sunk tender Nr. 48, tender Nr. 99 sunk after landing, tender Nr. 246 can't land soldiers and returned. Landing near Karpilo totally failed - 3 tenders and one smoke-layer was sunk, ither 3 tenders beached on soviet shores. Plus was sunk SKA Nrs. 909 and 913.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 27 Mar 2010 14:32

Aha, thanks.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Mangrove » 24 Jun 2010 14:33

JTV wrote: BTW: Does anybody have more detailed info about the Soviet landing barges used in Bay of Viipuri in 1944?
We have received following information on the largest landing craft used by the enemy:
LCT-class, landing craft, 44 to 50 meters long, with an engine, range 100 nm., crew 1+0+10, displacement 210 tons. Able to carry three tanks à 40 tons, five tanks à 26 tons or six tanks à 16 tons and c. ten lorries or 600 men. The vessel is shielded against infantry fire. [Has a] bridge and shallow funnel at the back. The ramp at the bow can be lowered.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3222364
V. Hajatietoja.
Vihollisen käyttämästä ja todetusta suurimmasta maihinnousualuksesta on saatu seuraavia tietoja:
LCT-luokka, maihinnousulaiva, 44-50 m pitkä, koneisto moottoroitu, toimintamatka 100 meripnk., henkilöstöä 1 u + 10 m., uppouma 210 tonnia. Kuljetuskyky 3 psv:a à 40 tonnin tai 5 psv:a à 26 tonnin tai 6 psv:a à 16 tonnin ja n. 10 k.autoa tai 600 miestä. Alus on täydellisesti suojattu jv.tulta vastaan. Komentosilta ja matala savupiippu perässä, keulalevy alaslaskettava.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 26 Jun 2010 09:25

It seems that they had got this information from Normandy beaches. I don't know whether any lend-lease LCTs were shipped to the Soviet Union, but they were not used in Vyborg landing. The typical landing craft was "tender" or self-propelled barge. It carried up to a reinforced company (some 100+ men). Smaller cutters were also used, for example, to land obstacles-removing teams in the first wave.

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