Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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JTV
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 29 Jun 2010 07:01

John Hilly wrote: In fact the Torjuntakomppaniat were Coastal Companies originally trained by the Coast-Artillery as close support troops of the coast fortification.
To be honest, they weren't formed with the men above the average, i.e. they were mostly crapped. Sorry for saying that! :oops:

Back to the subject of translating these bloody TK's:
Maybe the translation might be "Coastal defence Company"?
I have been using both Coastal Defence Company and Beach Defence Company as translations of the unit type. While these are nothing like the original Finnish name for these units (which would be literally translated: Repulse Company), they at least give pretty good idea what the function of the particular unit type was. As mentioned early on these units were formed to provide close defence for coastal fortifications. Later on they were simply heavily armed (main weaponry: medium machineguns and light guns in 20-mm - 47-mm caliber range) companies of coastal troops used to defend important beaches and islands. Usually a whole company was placed in the same island, part of island or part of coast, with each platoon of particular company having base of its own there. Due to nature of their weaponry these bases were usually in the very beaches they were to defend.

My website has some info about organisations used in TK (called Coastal Defence Company in the page):
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/FORMATIONS10.htm

Jarkko

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 29 Jun 2010 07:17

PBlitz wrote:Hello Art:

PSTTKI - panssarintorjuntatykki - AT Gun
KK - konekivääri - machinegun
ITTKI - ilmatorjuntatykki - AA Gun (not machinegun)
BTW: More detailed info about heavy weapons in the particular island has been listed in some of Finnish books. What I remember (I don't have my notes right now):
- Medium machineguns: 7.92-mm Maxim MG-08
- Anti-aircraft guns: 20 ItK/39M (20-mm Madsen automatic-cannons)
- Antitank-guns: 20 PstK/40 (20-mm Madsen on antitank-gun mount) (what I remember, not 100% certain about this part).
After the first battle also 47-mm coastal guns were brought to the island as reinforcements?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 29 Jun 2010 08:36

Many thanks to everybody for their help. I also have questions concerning the order of battle of the RTR 22 and RR 2, it looks like it was rather complex with many numbered companies. Can anyone help with it?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 29 Jun 2010 08:58

Vyacheslav_M wrote: I did a research about Vyborg bay fighting in 1941-1944 using Central NAvy Archive documents and russian secondary sources. During research i couldn't find any details about Ravansaari island fighting. Open russian sources only mention that the island was captured be the midday of 4th of july without details and there is no description in navy documents.
I have some information from TsAMO RF. In general there were two attempts of landing on Ravansaari. The first was made by the 185th Rifle Regiment on 30 June - 1 July. The regiment was ferried to Uuraansaari after the march from debarkation area except its 3rd battalion, which remained in Koivisto and then was landed on Teikarinssari. In late evening of 30.06 (and under cover of fog, as Finnish documents say) the regiment started to cross Uuraansalmi strait using standard engineer and locally requisitioned boats. Asa result on 30.06-1.07 two rifle companies were landed on the southern tip of Suonionsaari and other two - on the sand spit in the central part of Ravanssari's southern coast and captured small beachheads there. The remaining two rifle companies remained uncommitted on Uuraanssari. Losses were heavy - almost 200 men, not counting 3/185 Rifle Regiment, also many boats were lost. It must be said that the operation was very hastily prepared, and artillery support was token, since the artillery units of the 59th hadn't finished their deployment yet.
On 4th July the crossing was continued. This time two remaining companies of the 185th Rifle Regiments crossed Uurraansalmi on boats again on 10.30 after an artillery preparation. By noon the southern half of the island was captured, but the further advance was stopped by flanking fire from the small island of Suitsaari. By 16.40 Finns retreated as a result of successful actions of the 143rd Rifle Regiment and Ravanssari was finally captured. Its rather hard to find out losses on that particular day, but they were smaller than in the first landing attempt.
Since he landing was made without support of the KBF, it apparently left no trace in the Navy documents.
You can contact me via PM, if you are interested in additional details.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 29 Jun 2010 09:40

JTV wrote: BTW: More detailed info about heavy weapons in the particular island has been listed in some of Finnish books. What I remember (I don't have my notes right now):
- Medium machineguns: 7.92-mm Maxim MG-08
- Anti-aircraft guns: 20 ItK/39M (20-mm Madsen automatic-cannons)
- Antitank-guns: 20 PstK/40 (20-mm Madsen on antitank-gun mount) (what I remember, not 100% certain about this part).
After the first battle also 47-mm coastal guns were brought to the island as reinforcements?
I have a list of weapons captured on Teikarin- and Melansaari on 5-6 July:
6 76-mm guns, 16 45-mm guns, 9 large-caliber machineguns (probably 20-mm AA guns), 27 German Maxim type machineguns (apparently MG-08), 3 Browning heavy machineguns, 64 Browning light machineguns, 192 Mauser rifles, 17 MP-38/40, 34 "Suomi" SMGs, 72 Finnish rifles. Source: war diary of the 406th Rifle Regiment. In addition the 1st Battalion, 622 Rifle Regiment claimed 5 coastal guns, 6 120-mm mortars, 15 AT rifles, 12 heavy and 26 light machineguns, 102 SMGs, 597 rifles. But that most likely include Soviet weapons lost in previous landings as well.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 29 Jun 2010 21:40

Art wrote:
JTV wrote: But that most likely include Soviet weapons lost in previous landings as well.
It must - since some of the items on that list certainly don't otherwise make any sense. These jump in the first look:
- MP 38/40 submachineguns: I doubt Finnish units in these island had any. These were very rare in Finnish use and typically used by units which had been equipped with German vehicles (assault guns, staff cars etc) which had been delivered with MP 38 or MP 40 submachinegun among their standard equipment kit.
- Browning heavy machineguns: If if assume those are .50 cal, only Finnish user was Air Force in many of its aircraft.
- I am pretty sure that Finnish guns on the islands were notably smaller than 76-mm.
- Browning (actually 7.92-mm FN D version of Browning BAR) light machineguns and Swedish 6.5-mm Mauser M/96 rifles were pretty much the standard weaponry for Finnish coastal troops at that time.
- Mortars were likely Soviet ones from previous landing, I remember reading that Finnish troops captured one mortar company worth of mortars after the earlier landing.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vyacheslav_M » 30 Jun 2010 11:01

Since he landing was made without support of the KBF, it apparently left no trace in the Navy documents.
You can contact me via PM, if you are interested in additional details.[/quote]

Thanks, you're right, we'd better discuss it using PM
Regards

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 01 Jul 2010 15:54

JTV wrote: - MP 38/40 submachineguns: I doubt Finnish units in these island had any.
Strictly speaking they were called "Schmeissers", which usually means MP-38/40, but in this case they could be Bergmann SMGs.
Browning heavy machineguns: If if assume those are .50 cal
In this context, most probably, rifle caliber.
- Browning (actually 7.92-mm FN D version of Browning BAR) light machineguns and Swedish 6.5-mm Mauser M/96 rifles were pretty much the standard weaponry for Finnish coastal troops at that time.
"Japanese" and even "English" rifles are also mentioned among weapons captured by the 59th Army.

Addition: 160th Rifle Regiment landed on Teikarsaari and Melansaari on 4 July with 4 76-mm regimental guns and 4 45-mm AT guns, the same number (8 or 9) of Soviet guns were later gathered on the islands by units of the 124 Rifle Division.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 02 Jul 2010 17:34

I'm now back home and finally able to access again hard-drives of my home desktop. I had a nagging feeling I had a certain piece of gem concerning the subject, that I found from the Finnish National Archives (back then still Finnish Military Archives) few years ago.

Report sent by HQ of III Army Corps to HQ of Finnish Navy.
Date of report 12th of July 1944

Following weapons and ammunition were lost in battles of Teikarisaari and Melasaari Islands:
- 6.5-mm Mauser rifle: 180 pcs
- 7.62-mm rifle: 461 pcs
- 7.65-mm pistol m/mixed: 1 pcs
- 9-mm pistol M/1896: 1 pcs
- 6.5-mm light machinegun M/21: 4 pcs
- 7.62-mm light machinegun M/27: 3 pcs
- 7.92-mm light machinegun FN D: 48 pcs
- 9-mm submachinegun M/31 Suomi: 216 pcs
- 7.62-mm Maxim M/09-09 medium machinegun: 5 pcs
- 7.92-mm Maxim M/08: 18 pcs
- flare-gun m/Finnish: 10 pcs
- 20-mm antitank-rifle L-39: 1 pcs
- 20-mm Solothurn antitank-rifle: 4 pcs
- 81 Krh/33 mortar: 1 pcs
- 81 Krh/36 mortar: 1 pcs
- 120 Krh/38 mortar: 1 pcs
- 45 PstK/38 antitank-gun: 4 pcs
- 6.5-mm x 55 ammunition: 7,000 rounds
- 7.62-mm x 54R and 7.92-mm x 57JS ammunition: 56,000 rounds
- 9-mm x 19 ammunition: 65,000 rounds
- Offensive egg handgrenades: 70 pcs
- Defensive egg handgrenades: 185 pcs
- Stick handgrenades: 158 pcs
- 13.9-mm x 99B ammunition: 115 rounds
- 20-mm x 138B ammunition AP-T (20 psa-Vj VKT): 125 rounds
- 81-mm mortar shells: 123 pcs
- 120-mm mortar shells: 100 pcs

Report signed by Major H. Sahro and Lieutenant H. Köresaar.

BTW: It is worth noting that artillery weapons (antitank-guns, antiaircraft-guns and light coastal guns) lost in the islands are not listed in this list, since they were kept in seperate inventory system (of the Navy).

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 02 Jul 2010 17:45

Another report of interest. Infantry weapons losses of Finnish Navy (which included coastal troops) in period 9th of June - 7th of July 1944 (does not include losses of Laatokka / Ladoga Coastal Brigade):
- Pistols: 40 pcs
- 9-mm submachinegun: 36 pcs
- 7.35-mm rifle: 82 pcs
- 7.62-mm rifle: 1,385 pcs
- 7.92-mm light machinegun: 54 pcs
- 7.92-mm medium machinegun: 82 pcs
- 20-mm antitank-rifle: 3 pcs
- 45 PstK/32 antitank-gun: 16 pcs
- 81-mm mortars: 9 pcs
- 120-mm mortar: 4 pcs
- flare-gun: 93 pcs

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 08 Jul 2010 16:17

Here is a list of Finnish units participating in actions on Teikarsaari and Melansaari.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3408651
If I understand correctly it says the following:

A. Before the actions started (by 30 June 1944) there were following units on the islands:
-Teikarsaari - 3rd company/7 Coastal Battalion, 80 Coastal Defense Company, a battery of 1 75-mm Betlehem gun mod.1917 and 4 47-mm Obukhov guns, 6 20-mm Madsen AA guns from 2nd Coastal AA Company
- Melansaari - 42 Coastal Defense Company, 2 20-mm Madsen AA guns from from 2nd Coastal AA Company, 2 47-mm Obukhov guns.

B. During the battle of 1.7.44 transferred to the islands were:
1.30-2.05 a.m. 16 Coastal Defense Company
03.13-04.04 a.m. 1st company/battalion(?)/2 Coastal Regiment
10.50 a.m. 2nd company/battalion/2 Coastal Regiment
all from Vilaniemi

C. From 2 to 4.7.44 transferred:
From Teikarsaari 3rd company/7 Coastal Battalion to Kaukila, 2nd company/2 Coastal Regiment to Vilaniemi, 16 Coastal Defense Company to Teikarsaari
To Teikersaari 3rd company/2 Coastal Regiment from Vilaniemi, 11 Coastal Defense Company from Kaukila, 1 120-mm mortar from Vailaniemi
So it appears that there were 2 companies on Melansaari and 4 on Teikarsaari by the morning of 4 July.

D. During the battle of 4-5 July transferred:
To Melansaari
13.50-15.30 2nd company/2 Coastal Regiment from Vilaniemi
20.00 company Storskrubb, composed of rifle platoons (?) of 1st and 75 Coastal Defense Companies from Karjaniemi
To Teikarsaari
4.7 20.20 3rd company/7 Coastal Battalion and machinegun company/2nd Coastal Regiment from Kaukila
5.7 01.00 Salomaa detachment composed of elements of 1st Coastal Pioneer Company and IV battalion/12 Coastal Artillery Regiment from Kaukila

E. Islands were evacuated
5.7.44 by 19.05 - Teikarsaari
5.7.44 by 21.45 - Melansaari

Are there any corrections/additions?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 08 Jul 2010 16:59

JTV wrote: Report sent by HQ of III Army Corps to HQ of Finnish Navy.
Date of report 12th of July 1944
Must have been the V Army Corps.
Ok,ok, I'm nagging!
With best
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 08 Jul 2010 19:35

John Hilly wrote:
JTV wrote: Report sent by HQ of III Army Corps to HQ of Finnish Navy.
Date of report 12th of July 1944
Must have been the V Army Corps.
Nope, it was HQ of III Army Corps - unless the original document has an error. Closeup of original document attached.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 08 Jul 2010 21:33

Unbelievable!
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 09 Jul 2010 14:40

For comparison, losses of weapons of the Soviet 59th Army in July 1944:

Rifles and carbines - 870
pistols - 167
SMGs - 634
light machineguns - 115
heavy machineguns - 42
flare pistols - 52
AT rifles - 27
50-mm mortars - 46
82-mm mortars - 25
120-mm mortars - 1
45-mm guns - 5
76-mm regimental guns - 2
76-mm divisional guns - 2
These are total write-offs, which includes abandoned (and not recovered), drowned, destroyed by artillery and bombs weapons etc. Of 6 120-mm mortars, 6 45-mm and 4 76-mm regimental guns abandoned during the landing all but 1 76-mm guns were recovered.
The source is a monthly report of the artillery staff 59th Army.

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