Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

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John Hilly
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by John Hilly » 09 Jul 2010 19:58

JTV wrote:Report sent by HQ of III Army Corps to HQ of Finnish Navy.
Date of report 12th of July 1944
Sorry I still dont understand. :?
We all know that in June, July and August the III AK fought in the area of eastern Karelian Isthmus and the HQ/ V AK was transferred from Aunus to the Bay of Vyborg.

There must be an error in the document!!! The III AK, never. :x
With best anyhow
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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JTV
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by JTV » 13 Jul 2010 11:02

John Hilly wrote:
JTV wrote:Report sent by HQ of III Army Corps to HQ of Finnish Navy.
Date of report 12th of July 1944
Sorry I still dont understand. :?
We all know that in June, July and August the III AK fought in the area of eastern Karelian Isthmus and the HQ/ V AK was transferred from Aunus to the Bay of Vyborg.

There must be an error in the document!!! The III AK, never. :x
With best anyhow
Juha-Pekka :milwink:
I checked and indeed it having this sort of typo seems quite likely. For a while I even considered the possibility that the particular document might in fact be from Kannaksen Joukkojen Esikunta (HQ for Troops in the Ishmus), which was created to command both III and IV Army Corps, but since it's personel come almost completely from III Army Corps, this seems unlikely. Could be that the original text first hand-written and the typo happened when it was typed?

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Art
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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 20 Jul 2010 15:58

Some archival material on personnel losses of both sides.

Losses of the RTR 22 (22nd Coastal Artillery Regiment) probably including elements of RR2 attached 1-7 July 1944:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3408649
In all he regiment lost 136 men killed in action, 506 wounded in action and 194 missing, total 836 men.
Losses of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade (apparently without 200 Infantry Regiment) 1-15 July 1944:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3222461
Total 362 men, including 65 killed, 257 wounded and 25 missing.
The German 122 Infantry Division lost 205 men (36 killed, 168 wounded, 1 missing) during July 1944 according to Heeresarzt reports:
http://ww2stats.com/cas_ger_okh_dec44.html
That contradicts to information on circa 600 casualties posted earlier in this thread, I can't say where the last came from.

From the Soviet side the staff of the 59th Army reported the following losses in ten-day and monthly losses reports:
http://s49.radikal.ru/i123/1007/cb/159cc95d8399.jpg
Compiled from TsAMO f. 416, op.10453, d. 86, ll.2, 41-42, 86-89. That doesn't include losses of the Navy's personnel. Losses during the landing operation proper (1-9 July) are not easy to calculate precisely, but they can be estimated as ~3400 killed, wounded and missing. By the most modest calculations fighting on Teikarsaari and Melansaari accounts for almost half of killed.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Jul 2010 20:00

Art wrote:That contradicts to information on circa 600 casualties posted earlier in this thread, I can't say where the last came from.
Can you say by whom and at where the "circa 600 casualties" is posted ?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 25 Jul 2010 08:28

German 122 division lost some 600 men.
The source is the following page:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/juhani.put ... ksella.htm
which says "Saksalaisten kokonaistappiot olivat noin 600 miestä" with reference to Matti Koskimaa, "Torjuntavoitto Viipurinlahdella kesällä 1944", 1996, sivu 161

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 26 Jul 2010 20:42

Thanks Art.

I checked the Matti Koskimaa book: "Torjuntavoitto Viipurinlahdella kesällä 1944", 1996, page 161, and the mention is relly there.
Either a typo, mistake or as a direct translation of "Saksalaisten vastaavat kokonaistappiot olivat noin 600 miestä" = "Corresponding German total losses were about 600 men" - at the book there is no direct mention the losses being of only 122 ID, Koskimaa might have ment the German total losses at (battle Of Bay of Vyborg) that time, including Navy and AF ???

Don't know would that raised the loss number to ~600 level.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Slava_M » 30 Jul 2010 08:36

Only a short question to Art - which actions performed 185th RR (224th RD) on 04-07.07.44? It lost tens of men mentioned as buried on Ravansaari (TsAMO 58/18002/599/224-227ob, for example). Some attempts of landing to Turkinsaari or Harjuniemi?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Esa K » 30 Jul 2010 12:28

Hi
Slava_M wrote:Only a short question to Art - which actions performed 185th RR (224th RD) on 04-07.07.44? It lost tens of men mentioned as buried on Ravansaari (TsAMO 58/18002/599/224-227ob, for example). Some attempts of landing to Turkinsaari or Harjuniemi?
According to Raunio, Ari & Kilin, Juri: Sodan taisteluja 2 : Jatkosota, Porvoo 2005, map on page 318, Soviet 185th RR made attempts to land on Hapenensaari and Piisparisaari at 6/7 – 8/7 1944.


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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 30 Jul 2010 13:47

After Ravansaari was taken on 4 July, the 185th Regiment formed two composite companies of remaining personnel. On 5 July after noon one company landed on Vasikkasaari and southern part of Turkinsaari, the other - on the southern coast of Hannustiensaari. Both companies used boats, Navy's ships didn't took part in action. On 5 and 6 July both groups were dislodged by Finns from Turkin- and Hannustiensaari. Vasikkasaari remained in Soviet hands. The days of 6 and 7 July were quiet, in the evening of 7 July two companies of a newly formed 3rd Battalion/185 Rifle Regiment made a landing on Hapenesari using 1 tender and 2 ZIS cutters. The occupied the central part of the island but in the ensuing night battle were counterattacked by German-Finnish forces and dislodged from the island. The remaining company of the 3rd battalion was called for reinforcement but due to mistake a part of it landed in the southern part of Hannustiensaari, the rest were beaten back. On 8th July the regiment transferred part of its personnel to the 143 Rifle Regiment and switched to defense. A small group (several dozens men) continued to defend a piece of ground on Hannustiensaari despite repeated attacks on them in July-August.
I don't remember that 185 RR undertook landings on Harjuniemi and Pispansaari, and reports of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade don't speak of them, but I'll check it anyway.
It is hardly possible to estimate losses in these particular episodes. In all according to a divisional reports the regiment lost 467 killed in action, 420 wounded, 52 missing during 1-9 July 1944. Most missing were found dead or alive after 9 July.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Esa K » 30 Jul 2010 14:22

Hi.
Art wrote:I don't remember that 185 RR undertook landings on Harjuniemi and Pispansaari, and reports of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade don't speak of them, but I'll check it anyway.
You are probably correct abut this, cause at the map I refeered to, the units in question, 185 RR, movements during those days are a bit rudimentary described, so it was more my interpretation of the map that my post above reflects.


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Esa K

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 02 Aug 2010 18:23

Well, that is from a battle order of the division (224 Rifle Division) 4 July 1944:
"...185th Rifle Regiment is to form two full-strength rifle companies: one is to take Turkinsaari, the other - Hapenensaari. The remaining forces are to defend Ravansaari island..."
The divisional situation report by the end of the day (23.00 5 July):
" 185 Rifle Regiment - after 12.15 landed a group on Vasikkasaari and seized it and continues fighting in the southern part of Turkinsaari 300 meteres north of the southern coast.
One rifle company was landed on Hannustiensaari, seized a beachhead and conducts fighting in front of the round embankment. By the end of the day the enemy counterattacked with forces up to a company supported by massed artillery and mortar fire. The company fights to destroy counterattacking enemy."
Nothing is said about actions in other places. Other documents have the same information.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 02 Aug 2010 18:54

On 'Jatkosodan torjuntataisteluja 1942-44' (sorta like second edition of sorts for the book Esa K mentioned). It features three maps related to 224th RD and Harjuniemi region (situation on July 5, situation on July 6 - 8 and situation on July 9). And some of the maps seem to imply like both 143th and 185th Rifle Regiment would be landing to Harjuniemi. But the last map (of July 9) shows solely the 143th attacking Harjuniemi - though the text leaves it vague regarding the actual unit performing the crossing just mentioning that (rough translation from Juri Kilin's section regarding the 9th) 'battered 224th RD could only muster a battalions worth of men for the crossing' which seems to be inline what is described here by Art. There is also one reference to landings to Hapenensaari but the actual unit doing the landing is not identified - just mentioned that the landing occurred just when Finns and Germans were switching positions.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 03 Aug 2010 07:32

Vaeltaja wrote:On 'Jatkosodan torjuntataisteluja 1942-44' (sorta like second edition of sorts for the book Esa K mentioned). It features three maps related to 224th RD and Harjuniemi region (situation on July 5, situation on July 6 - 8 and situation on July 9). And some of the maps seem to imply like both 143th and 185th Rifle Regiment would be landing to Harjuniemi.
That must be a mistake.
But the last map (of July 9) shows solely the 143th attacking Harjuniemi
That is correct.

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 09 Aug 2010 12:25

Umh...
Losses of the RTR 22 (22nd Coastal Artillery Regiment) probably including elements of RR2 attached 1-7 July 1944:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3408649
In all he regiment lost 136 men killed in action, 506 wounded in action and 194 missing, total 836 men.
Losses of the Finnish Cavalry Brigade (apparently without 200 Infantry Regiment) 1-15 July 1944:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=3222461
Total 362 men, including 65 killed, 257 wounded and 25 missing.
The German 122 Infantry Division lost 205 men (36 killed, 168 wounded, 1 missing) during July 1944 according to Heeresarzt reports:
http://ww2stats.com/cas_ger_okh_dec44.html
That contradicts to information on circa 600 casualties posted earlier in this thread, I can't say where the last came from.
In general the V armycore (armeijakunta) lost between 22.6.-12.7. 4.400 men as killed, wounded and missing on the islands and on mainland. RTR 22 (coastal artillery) lost 628 men out of which 297 KIA. German 122 division lost some 600 men. Estonian JR 200 lost 17 KIA and 32 WIA....
Ok i suppose the Soviet side casualties - apart from the Baltic Fleet losses - are now properly accounted for (thanks to Art - though there seem to be something odd about the table, the sums in the MIA section) but the Finnish/German side losses... Not to mention the naval and air losses (but that is whole another story). From the wardiaries Art found no matter how you add the numbers you cant really reach the reported value of 4 400 (836 (RTR 22) + 362 (Cavalry Brigade) 205 (German 122nd D) + 51 (JR 200) = 1 454).

In other words is there something wrong there or are Tienhaara region losses included the this or are there some explanations?

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Re: Bay of Viipuri (Vyborg) 1944

Post by Art » 09 Aug 2010 15:20

Vaeltaja wrote: though there seem to be something odd about the table, the sums in the MIA section
The fate of most missing was clarified: of 176 reported missing during the period 1-10 July, 114 were declared dead, 35 were found among wounded, 3 found among sick, 11 returned to their units intact, 13 remained missing by the end of the month. Pay attention that the monthly report wasn't the sum of ten-days reports but was compiled from monthly reports submitted by subordinate units which were in their turn corrected compared with earlier data.
how you add the numbers you cant really reach the reported value of 4 400
The V corps had also Finnish 17 Division and 3 Brigade, which didn't participate in the battle for the islands but must suffer some losses as well. I took only those units that were in the sector of the 59th Army.

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