Total Soviet losses in 1944 Summer offensive?
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Total Soviet losses in 1944 Summer offensive?
Hello,
I am writing an article for Finns in the wargame "Flames of War". I was wondering, does anyone have a reliable number for the total Soviet losses in the 1944 summer offensive? if possible, please quote sources.
A Wikipedia article on the Continuation War gives total Soviet losses for that conflict as one million casualties (!) althouhg doesn't state the source for this, or the breakdown by year.
Finaly, anyone care to estimate total Soviet and Finnish casualties for all of the Talvisota and Jatkosota?
thanks
Scott
I am writing an article for Finns in the wargame "Flames of War". I was wondering, does anyone have a reliable number for the total Soviet losses in the 1944 summer offensive? if possible, please quote sources.
A Wikipedia article on the Continuation War gives total Soviet losses for that conflict as one million casualties (!) althouhg doesn't state the source for this, or the breakdown by year.
Finaly, anyone care to estimate total Soviet and Finnish casualties for all of the Talvisota and Jatkosota?
thanks
Scott
The only number of any accuracy I'm aware of is in David Glantz's The Battle for Leningrad 1941-44, p. 458:
For the Finnish losses during the Continuation War, see my old post here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 86a#836320
There are also previous threads about the Finnish and Soviet losses during the Winter War that can be found by making a forum search.
Glantz only discusses Govorov's Leningrad Front; I haven't seen any figures for the Soviet forces north of Lake Ladoga.By Soviet count, Govorov's armies suffered 30,029 casualties, including 6,018 killed, captured, or missing and 24,011 wounded or sick out of an initial force of 188,800 men committed into combat during the Vyborg operation. However, this figure shows only those losses suffered from 10 to 20 June and does not include the heavy fighting from 21 June through 14 July, when Govorov's forces probably lost another 30,000 men.
For the Finnish losses during the Continuation War, see my old post here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 86a#836320
There are also previous threads about the Finnish and Soviet losses during the Winter War that can be found by making a forum search.
The following info is from the book " Soviet Casualties and combat losses in the Twentieth century " editied by Colonel General G.F. Krivosheev published by Stackpole Books,Pennsylvania ISBN 1-85367-280-7. I do not know how accurate the data is but the book covers all fronts. Regards Tero T
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This Soviet data give a breakdown on losses per year on the Karelian front. I still will dig up what was happening on the arctic front. These are Soviet losses from Soviet sources, same publication as above. Tero T
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It is really unfortunate that Kirosheev doesn't include the dates of heavy fighting at the end of the offensive to his statistics. Does anyone know did he have any problems with his sources?
Anyway, Ohto Manninen in "Molotovin coctail, Hitlerin sateenvarjo" (1994, ISBN 951-37-1495-0, Painatuskeskus) published some data on the issue. He had searched Soviet archives and reached some conclusions. (Unfortunately I have here only the casualties from Tali-Ihantala, but I'll send the missing data when I reach the book itself.)
Archives of Soviet Ministry of Defence, daily casualty reports of 21. Army June 29 - July 10, 1944, 10-day casualty summaries of 21. Army, June-July 1944. Daily reports consists 3,198 KIA, 363 MIA and 13,125 WIA. With the information of 10-day summaries, the casualties of the first four days of the battle could be estimated, which gives total Soviet losses to about 22,000 from which 4,500-5,500 KIA/MIA. According to Soviet military medication statistics from the wounded, about 6% died to their wounds, and those would not be included in the numbers above.
Anyway, Ohto Manninen in "Molotovin coctail, Hitlerin sateenvarjo" (1994, ISBN 951-37-1495-0, Painatuskeskus) published some data on the issue. He had searched Soviet archives and reached some conclusions. (Unfortunately I have here only the casualties from Tali-Ihantala, but I'll send the missing data when I reach the book itself.)
Archives of Soviet Ministry of Defence, daily casualty reports of 21. Army June 29 - July 10, 1944, 10-day casualty summaries of 21. Army, June-July 1944. Daily reports consists 3,198 KIA, 363 MIA and 13,125 WIA. With the information of 10-day summaries, the casualties of the first four days of the battle could be estimated, which gives total Soviet losses to about 22,000 from which 4,500-5,500 KIA/MIA. According to Soviet military medication statistics from the wounded, about 6% died to their wounds, and those would not be included in the numbers above.
I should have looked at all the threads before I sent the charts. It has been well discussed previously. Here is one
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... krivosheev
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... krivosheev
Please note also that the Leningrad front statistics is over 15 rifle divisions, 2 fortified regions, 1 tank brigade. But in 10-20.6.44 battles more units had taken part:Whiskey wrote:It is really unfortunate that Kirosheev doesn't include the dates of heavy fighting at the end of the offensive to his statistics..
At least 22 rifle divisions (45, 63, 64 Guards RD, 178, 358, 372, 46, 90, 314, 72, 109, 286, 168, 265, 268, 13, 177, 92, 281, 381, 10, 142 RD), up to 4 tank brigades (30 Gurds, 1, 152, 220), at least 2 artillery divisions (5 Guards and 15), 32 AD artillery division, at least 3 pioneer brigades (17 Sturm, 20, 52), and many other units.
Old Krivosheev and new one have some gap?
Hi
This data in English tables are from first edition of Krivosheev from 1993 I suppose.
Next edition of this book was in 2001, "Rossya i SSSR w wojnach XX wieka" and the next edition have bigger data of losses, for example for Soviet invasion on Poland in 1939 (400 hundred more KIA in the same period 1465, if I am right rmember ) or for the examole about ChachinGol river are also a liitle bigger to 9.703 KIA.
This data anyway are not full, for example in both Krivosheeev editions are for Polish campainge (IX, X 1939) given total losses in avaition all for 4 KIA, from other sources printed in Russia too, the losses in Soviet avaition branch in the same war is: 11 KIA, so the both books have some gap in thier data.
Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski
This data in English tables are from first edition of Krivosheev from 1993 I suppose.
Next edition of this book was in 2001, "Rossya i SSSR w wojnach XX wieka" and the next edition have bigger data of losses, for example for Soviet invasion on Poland in 1939 (400 hundred more KIA in the same period 1465, if I am right rmember ) or for the examole about ChachinGol river are also a liitle bigger to 9.703 KIA.
This data anyway are not full, for example in both Krivosheeev editions are for Polish campainge (IX, X 1939) given total losses in avaition all for 4 KIA, from other sources printed in Russia too, the losses in Soviet avaition branch in the same war is: 11 KIA, so the both books have some gap in thier data.
Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski
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Thanks very much for the replies and links to previous thread. Ok so my overall understanding is as follows (numbers deliberately rounded off):
Winter War
Finnish losses 70,000 (24,000 dead)
Soviet losses 300,000 (120,000 dead)
Continuation War
Finnish losses 200,000 (60,000 dead)
Soviet losses 400,000 (150,000 dead)
- in both cases, about 1/3 of Continuation war casualties occurred in 1944 offensive (June-August)
I realise that there is still a lot of uncertainty about this, and for some a lot of debate. I am not trying to get exact numbers. My main intention is just to illustrate that the scale of fighting in the Continuation War, especially the 1944 fighting, was as great as in the Winter War. There is very little about the 1941-44 fighting in english, and so most people assume the Winter War was bigger.
Also, I see that the ratio of losses was closer in the Continuation War than in the Winter War, but still there were much more Soviet losses, and a higher % of Soviet losses were killed. I presume this was partly because of the severe losses some Soviet units took in encirclement (Motti) battles, when wounded could not be evacuated.
regards
Scott Elaurant
Winter War
Finnish losses 70,000 (24,000 dead)
Soviet losses 300,000 (120,000 dead)
Continuation War
Finnish losses 200,000 (60,000 dead)
Soviet losses 400,000 (150,000 dead)
- in both cases, about 1/3 of Continuation war casualties occurred in 1944 offensive (June-August)
I realise that there is still a lot of uncertainty about this, and for some a lot of debate. I am not trying to get exact numbers. My main intention is just to illustrate that the scale of fighting in the Continuation War, especially the 1944 fighting, was as great as in the Winter War. There is very little about the 1941-44 fighting in english, and so most people assume the Winter War was bigger.
Also, I see that the ratio of losses was closer in the Continuation War than in the Winter War, but still there were much more Soviet losses, and a higher % of Soviet losses were killed. I presume this was partly because of the severe losses some Soviet units took in encirclement (Motti) battles, when wounded could not be evacuated.
regards
Scott Elaurant
Here is the casualty figures of Soviet army from that Ohto Manninen's book (navy and air force not included). Casualties also include those suffered against German forces attacking from Finland. Sources as previously mentioned:
year KIA/MIA/POW died WIA sick total
1941 138 000 3 000 121 000 13 500 275 500
1942 46 000 3 500 82 000 61 000 192 000
1943 12 000 1 000 22 000 47 000 82 000
1944 57 500 2 000 157 500 68 000 126 000
total 253 500 9 500 383 500 188 500 835 000
year KIA/MIA/POW died WIA sick total
1941 138 000 3 000 121 000 13 500 275 500
1942 46 000 3 500 82 000 61 000 192 000
1943 12 000 1 000 22 000 47 000 82 000
1944 57 500 2 000 157 500 68 000 126 000
total 253 500 9 500 383 500 188 500 835 000
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Whiskey,
Thanks again. In that case my estimate is a bit low for continuation war casualties - maybe more like 600000 Soviet. (BTW I think the total for 1944 is incorrect in your numbers.)
If this is so, then it may be that Khruschev's claim that the Soviets lost a milion men fighting finland is false for the Winter War, but almost for the combined total.
regards
Scott
Thanks again. In that case my estimate is a bit low for continuation war casualties - maybe more like 600000 Soviet. (BTW I think the total for 1944 is incorrect in your numbers.)
If this is so, then it may be that Khruschev's claim that the Soviets lost a milion men fighting finland is false for the Winter War, but almost for the combined total.
regards
Scott
Actually, in the year 1941 (25.6.-31.12.) even more Finnish soldiers were killed than 1944 (1.1.-14.9.): 26 898 vs. 20 408. Defence is't so bloody as attcak.scott at home wrote: the scale of fighting in the Continuation War, especially the 1944 fighting, was as great as in the Winter War.
The figures are from "Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen": It gives the total number of killed Finnish soldiers 63 204. Civilian losses are not included and they are: 939 killed by bombs, 190 killed by partisans.
Re:
Even Krivosheev is giving Soviet deaths 126,875. However there is Soviet database of military individuals, with names and ranks deceased during Winter War: 167,976 (Pavel Petrov, year 2013). Because it's official Russian data and nothing "guess" or "suggesting" it could be quite near the truth. Historian Aptekar has also mentioned that numbers giving by Krivosheev are too low. Conditions during Winter War were so agonizing and terrible that both Finns and Soviets had much higher share of military deaths (compared to all losses) than during war of 1941-44.scott at home wrote: ↑09 Dec 2006, 07:52Thanks very much for the replies and links to previous thread. Ok so my overall understanding is as follows (numbers deliberately rounded off):
Winter War
Finnish losses 70,000 (24,000 dead)
Soviet losses 300,000 (120,000 dead)
regards
Scott Elaurant
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."
- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front
- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front