Finnish Special Forces Near Moscow?

[Tero]

Slava_M

BTW - how much polyglots were in Russian villages who knew Finnish!

The plot thickens.....

A number of Karelians/Finns moved to Tver area during the 17th century.


http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/karelians.shtml

http://www.fotw.net/flags/ru-tve_k.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians

[Janne]

Unfortunately all I could find in the old semi-official history was a table of training courses. The three winter courses for Germans held in Niinisalo and the two courses (one winter, the other "sissi" (patrol? anti-partisan?) in Tuusula are listed there, but the only reference to courses outside Finland are two prep courses, one for "a pioneer course in Germany" and one for "a course in Hungary", in which the Finns obviously would be the pupils, not the instructors.

[Rodan Lewarx]

A number of Karelians/Finns moved to Tver area during the 17th century

Similar in russuan with a maps and statistics
http://www.library.tver.ru/karel/histor_kar.htm

Regards

[Slava_M]

Slava_M

BTW - how much polyglots were in Russian villages who knew Finnish!

The plot thickens.....

A number of Karelians/Finns moved to Tver area during the 17th century.


http://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/karelians.shtml

http://www.fotw.net/flags/ru-tve_k.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians

Thank you, I knew it - but what about Moscow, Smolensk, Kaluga and even Orel which is close to Ukraine? Karelian refugees didn't flee from Swedes so far, as I know.
These village assumptions about Finns is gibberish. The close case - in the beginning of 1950-s during Stalin anti-semitizm campaign some people with German names were assumed as Jews.

[Mikko H.]

Finnish officers in training or as trainers in German Ostfront:

Between 3 February and 23 May 1942 the following officers visited III/IR 92, the official tradition carrier of the WWI-era Jäger Battalion 27, in Donets region to study the development of the Red Army:

- ratsumestari Jouko Suninen
- kapteeni Erkki Laurila
- luutnantti Keijo Katajainen
- luutnantti E. Palmio

In the spring of 1942 Finns agreed to train Germans in forest warfare. Finns sent two experienced battalion commanders to train Germans in Heeresgruppe Nord, and Germans in turn sent two officers to Finland to be trained.

In May-June 1942 two officers visited units of 16. and 18. Armee:

- majuri Yrjö Vasama
- majuri Kalle Pakarinen

As soon as these officers returned to Finland in early June, the following officers departed for a month to the
same Armees:

- everstiluutnantti Lauri Kumlin
- majuri Tauno Lampola

In August 1942 Germans again requested Finnish officers to Heeresgruppe Nord to instruct Germans in forest and winter warfare. Around the same time, in September 1942, Hungarians requested for the same reasons Finnish instructors for their troops in Ostfront.

On 23 August 1942 a group of 51 men departed for Heeresgruppe Nord, returning on 11 October:

- kapteeni Tapani Suhonen
- vänrikki P. Holopainen
- 45 NCOs
- 3 lance-corporals (korpraali)
- 1 private (sotamies)

On 20 September 1942 the following officers departed for Heeresgruppe Mitte:

- majuri Paavo Halttu (2. Panzerarmee)
- kapteeni Paavo Sirola (3. Panzerarmee)
- majuri Jorma Järventaus (4. Armee)
- everstiluutnantti Ali Koskimaa (9. Armee)
- majuri Matti Murole (Gruppe Chevalier)
- insinöörimajuri I. Alanko (rear area troops)

In November 1942 Germans requested more Finnish instructors, 80 for Heeresgruppe Nord, 3 for Mitte and 6 to 8 for Heeresgruppe B. After negotiations the following decisions were made:

- Murole and Halttu would continue in Heeresgruppe Mitte, and majuri Joel Wallden and luutnantti E. Ahmavaara would join them for the duration of January 1943 (all returned by the end of January 1943)
- for a month the group led by kapteeni Tapani Suhonen (see above) would return to Heeresgruppe Nord (they returned to Finland on 20 February 1943)
- two officers were sent to the NCO school of motorized forces

On 2 November 1942 the following men departed for the Hungarian army on Don:

- kapteeni K. Holma
- kapteeni E. Kautola
- ylikersantti L. Lommi
- alikersantti V. Huotari
- korpraali K. Järvinen

They returned at the end of February 1943. Around the same time this group was instructing the Hungarians, a group of 15 Hungarian officers took part in a winter warfare course in Finland.

In March 1943 Chief of Training Department everstiluutnantti Harry Hirki and commander of Infantry Regiment 33 everstiluutnantti Arvi Kurenmaa visited 18. Armee of Heeresgruppe Nord to get the latest information on Soviet offensive tactics.

Source: Jatkosodan pikkujättiläinen

[Harri]

Thanks for the information. I had forgot this one completely!

This is especially interesting:

On 23 August 1942 a group of 51 men departed for Heeresgruppe Nord, returning on 11 October:
- kapteeni Tapani Suhonen
- vänrikki P. Holopainen
- 45 NCOs
- 3 lance-corporals (korpraali)
- 1 private (sotamies)

Like a some sort of demonstration unit but a rather early dates for winter training.

Maj. M. Murole commanded Frontier Jäger units during the war but the others seem to be more or less ordinary platoon, company, battalion or regiment commanders. Maj. J. Wallden participated in the battles against Soviet Partisans as the battalion commander of the 11th Brigade (Infantry Regiment 11). Were Sirola and Halttu from the Finnish Supreme HQ? And wasn't Maj. Yrjö Vasama a journalist? That would suggest his aim was to obtain information.

I think none of the NCOs (there is no familiar names to me) were from the Special Detachments of Finnish Supreme HQ but may well have been from other Sissi (/Jäger) or Frontier Jäger units.

[Slava_M]

Thank you, Mikko!
A very good argument against rumours of Finnish hordes everywhere in Russia!

[sandels]

What about Finns in the battle of Kursk?
I was reading a book called "Ivan's War - The Red Army 1939-45" by Catherine Merridale. From an interview of a peasant woman called Valeriya Mikhailovna (born near Kursk in 1932) describing the liberation of her village in 1943:

The Austrian soldiers were good people, kind. The Finns were the worst. Even the Germans were afraid of them.

[Scharf]

Yes, thats natural that germans afraid us....lol
But I think that old woman talks, cause someone asked. Finns were not in Kursk.
Maybe met our ss.bat. in wartime, but not in Kursk!

World is so full of rumours....aaaarggghhh!!!!

Greetings,
Scharf

[Topspeed]

I think Tver was a river finns did not cross.

Tver (named Kalinin during WW2) is a city 150 km from Moscow. It is located on a Volga river on a road Moscow - St.Petersburg.

Well...I think Svir or something is a river..sorry my bad. Definitely no finnish troops in Tver.

[Topspeed]

. Finns were identified like "cruel tall redhead guys, don't speaking Russian".
So it is clearly misunderstanding and/or propaganda.

You can find it in a memoirs (for example http://gov.karelia.ru/Karelia/1563/19.html) of those who was under occupation so it's not a propaganda but misidentification. Also sometimes hungarian soldiers named "finns".

I have been in Hungary twice..that language does from a distance sound like finnish...even to me..and I am a native finn.

[Janne]

The "Finns" in the Merridale book have been mentioned here before - it's the same old story: oral history is nice, but memories and impressions cannot always be entirely trusted to be accurate or even true. Simple misidentification, rumours, propaganda and the effects of post-war "facts" on human memory are far too common.

In short, it appears that any non-German or even non-German-looking soldiers were "identified" as Finns (for various reasons) and there's sweet nothing that can be done to convince those who still want to see those Finns that there there really weren't any.

FWIW there's one theoretically possible explanation for at least a partially correct case of identification: these "Finns" might have been Ingrians (or Estonians) from the German occupied area belonging to some kind of auxiliary police unit. The units that I've seen references to operated inside Estonia or along the railway lines east of Estonia (i.e. well north of the Moscow front or the areas where the witnesses quoted by Merridale, Werth or others claim to have seen them.) But it could, as a long shot, be guessed that they were also deployed elsewhere for anti-partisan action for a shorter duration or that there were other such units which were poorly documented.

[Topspeed]

I recently read about a finnish speaking colony in close to Siberia..they had been sent there by the Emperor long before Stalin times..I think eldest lady still knew some finnish words. I would not be surprised if some finns were found also elsewhere in Russia.

[Harri]

Svir = Syväri (a river between lakes Ladoga and Onega)
Tver = Tver (city / area in Russia)

I think it was more likely to find Finnish speaking soldiers among the Soviet than among German troops...

[Juha Tompuri]

The man was killed immediately after when his truck was destroyed by Finnish special forces operating skis."

How did they know they would have been Finns?

So it is an information from ÎÁÑ (in Russian, "One Old woman Said") agency.

In Finland: HMTT = Hevosmiesten Tietotoimisto = Horsemen Agency

BTW - how much polyglots were in Russian villages who knew Finnish!

True.

Regards, Juha