Captured Soviet naval vessels in Finnish use?

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Christian W.
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Captured Soviet naval vessels in Finnish use?

Post by Christian W. » 07 May 2007 01:58

I don't know the details, but this Finnish Continuation War time newsreel shows Finnish forces using some captured Soviet gunboat. No idea where this footage was shot, but see it yourself, perhaps you know better.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgnKF_P80aE& ... ed&search= (skip the first 4 minutes and 48 seconds).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4FO6apx25Hs& ... ed&search= (the first 33 seconds)
Last edited by Christian W. on 07 May 2007 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mangrove » 07 May 2007 06:30


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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 06:53

Interesting also at the 16 2/2 clip, around 1min 50sec, is the Savunheitin Kss 10-7-1" (Smoke discharger) in action
http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/photo ... tm#Finland

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2007 17:12

I will be very busy till the mid. May, so sorry, if I can't answer in time.

That was not gunboat in reality but small armored motor-boat, 26.5 tons [project 1125, 151 were built].
Armament - 1x76mm tank gun [turret from T-34 in most cases] + 2x7.62mm +1x12.7mm.

That was small amored motor-boat No.215 [till 1941 - B-215, since 20.12.1944 - BK-215.]. Laid down in 1939, launched in spring 1940, accepted by Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy 12.07.1940.
23.08.1941 it was damaged by enemy artillery at Vyborg Bay, ran aground and was exploded by its crew. No. 215 was found by Finnish troops near Pukkio, repaired and used as patrol boat VTV-1. Served at Onega Lake since June 1942. Returned back to USSR in the end of 1944 and accepted by Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy again.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/small/pic/vtv1.jpg [in Finnish service]

P.S. Several modern databeses about Soviet navy I could find give the interesting info about Soviet armored motor-boats No. 213 and 214 of the same project, which ramed and sank 10 small enemy vessels at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941. Unique combat - without any shots [not to detect themselves under night weather] two Soviet armored motor-boats at 18 knots sank during very short period of time 6 motor-boats with landing troops, 2 big wooden boats with ammunition and 2 motor life-boats with landing troops.
Something like this - http://shipandship.chat.ru/foto/k/098.jpg
Were those vessels German or Finnish? Interesting, what opinion have Finnish historical authors about that combat?

P.S.2. As for captured by Finns Soviet vessels - AFAIK Finns used at Onega Lake several old ex-Soviet civil steamers, most part of which were sank by their crews before. As there are only a few info about them in German and Russian sources, I can mistake to some degree here [also sorry for transliteration problems of Finnish and Russian names, no time to check the correct names] - "Kyrhymjaki" [ex-Soviet "Roza Luxemburg", paddle-boat, armed by Finns with 3x75mm + 3x20mm guns], "Kontupohja" [ex-Soviet "Rozali", paddle-boat, armed by Finns with 2x75mm + 3x20mm guns], "Ilmari" [ex-Soviet "Semga"], Vyajne [ex-Soviet "Peskar"], "Erkki" [ex-Soviet "Buj"] - all three were tugs, armed by Finns with 1-2x45mm + 1x20mm.

Regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 18:40

BIGpanzer wrote:That was not gunboat in reality but small armored motor-boat
The Finnish designation of the captured boat was VTV-1
V = Vartio = patrol
T = Tykki = gun
V = Vene = boat
1 = Yksi = one


BP wrote:project 1125
What were the differences between the types 1124 and 1125?
BP wrote:Armament - 1x76mm tank gun [turret from T-34 in most cases] + 2x7.62mm +1x12.7mm.
VTV-1 originally had a either T-28 or T-35 turret (do you know which?) and AFAIK no 12.7mm mg's

BP wrote:23.08.1941 it was damaged by enemy artillery at Vyborg Bay, ran aground and was exploded by its crew
Never read about being exploded.

BP wrote:P.S. Several modern databeses about Soviet navy I could find give the interesting info about Soviet armored motor-boats No. 213 and 214 of the same project, which ramed and sank 10 small enemy vessels at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941. Unique combat - without any shots [not to detect themselves under night weather] two Soviet armored motor-boats at 18 knots sank during very short period of time 6 motor-boats with landing troops, 2 big wooden boats with ammunition and 2 motor life-boats with landing troops.
Something like this - http://shipandship.chat.ru/foto/k/098.jpg
Were those vessels German or Finnish? Interesting, what opinion have Finnish historical authors about that combat?
Never read about such combat.

BP wrote:P.S.2. As for captured by Finns Soviet vessels - AFAIK Finns used at Onega Lake several old ex-Soviet civil steamers, most part of which were sank by their crews before. As there are only a few info about them in German and Russian sources, I can mistake to some degree here [also sorry for transliteration problems of Finnish and Russian names, no time to check the correct names] - "Kyrhymjaki" [ex-Soviet "Roza Luxemburg", paddle-boat, armed by Finns with 3x75mm + 3x20mm guns], "Kontupohja" [ex-Soviet "Rozali", paddle-boat, armed by Finns with 2x75mm + 3x20mm guns], "Ilmari" [ex-Soviet "Semga"], Vyajne [ex-Soviet "Peskar"], "Erkki" [ex-Soviet "Buj"] - all three were tugs, armed by Finns with 1-2x45mm + 1x20mm.

Kyrhymjaki = Karhumäki
Vyajne = Väinö
viewtopic.php?t=109180&highlight

Regards, Juha

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Post by JTV » 07 May 2007 19:18

BIGpanzer wrote:P.S. Several modern databeses about Soviet navy I could find give the interesting info about Soviet armored motor-boats No. 213 and 214 of the same project, which ramed and sank 10 small enemy vessels at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941. Unique combat - without any shots [not to detect themselves under night weather] two Soviet armored motor-boats at 18 knots sank during very short period of time 6 motor-boats with landing troops, 2 big wooden boats with ammunition and 2 motor life-boats with landing troops.
Something like this - http://shipandship.chat.ru/foto/k/098.jpg
Were those vessels German or Finnish? Interesting, what opinion have Finnish historical authors about that combat?



This sounded familiar, so I checked book "Pioneeriaselajin historia 1918 - 1968" (History of Engineer Corps 1918 - 1968) by Eero-Eetu Saarinen (published by Gummerus year 1989). As part of a Finnish offensive in Carelian Isthmus 8th Division crossed Viipurinsalmi / Viborg Bay in August of 1941. The boats and ferries attacked by these two Soviet armoured motor-boats belonged to Finnish Engineer Battalion 14 and/or Engineer Battalion 22, which were responsible transporting troops of 8th Division across the Viborg Bay from Majapohja and Turkinsaari to Lihaniemi Cape. First transport was made in morning of 24th August and the whole Division was in eastern side of the Bay 31st of August. The equipment used contained flat-bottom rowboats (ruuhi) and pontoon ferries (made from pontoons also used for making pontoon bridges) pushed by small motorboats (syöksyvene - fast open low boat made from wood equipped with powerful Hungarian Kovacs outboard engine, each boat could transport squad of infantry).

Page 299 from "Pioneeriaselajin historia...":

"Jo ensimmäisenä päivänä kohdattiin ylimenopaikalla vihollisen moottoriveneitä ja muita aluksia, mutta ne eivät pystyneet estämään ylikuljetuksia. Seuraavina päivänä sitävastoin käytiin merellä kiivaita taisteluja, sillä vihollisen nopeakulkuiset tykki- ja moottoriveneet hyökkäsivät ylikuljetusten kimppuun ja vihollistykistö tulitti Uuraasta kuormaus- ja purkauspaikkoja sekä vesitietä. Seuraavina päivänä vihollisen vastatoimenpiteet yhä voimistuivat, tykkituli kiihtyi, ilmapommitukset tihenivät ja vihollisen tykkiveneet partioivat salmilla. Aamuyöllä 28.8. kaksi tykkivenettä hyökkäsi neljän tyhjänä palaavan ponttoonilautan kimppuun, ajoi niistä kaksi upoksiin ja ruhjoi käyttökelvottomiksi toiset kaksi. Myös neljä syöksyvenettä moottoreineen upposi. Miehistötappiot olivat kaatuneina tai hukkuneina kolme ja haavoittuneina neljä pioneeria."

Translated:

"Already during the first day of crossing the Bay enemy motor boats and other vessels were met, but they didn't succeed forcing us to stop the transports across the Bay. During the following days heated battles were fought on sea, because fast-moving enemy gun- and motorboats attacked against the transports and enemy artillery located in Uuraa bombarded embarking- and disemarking areas and the transport route between them. During the following days counter-measures of the enemy increased still, artillery fire increased pace, air raids became more frequent and enemy gunboats patrolled the straits. In early hours of 28th of August two gunboats attacked against four pontoon ferries which were returning empty, they rammed them sinking two of the pontoon ferries and damaging the other two beyond repair. Also four "syöksyvene" sunk. The losses of personnel were 3 engineers KIA or drowned and 4 engineers wounded."

So while the basic story was correct it seems that the boats and ferries that they sunk were in fact empty after just delivering their cargo of troops and equipment to eastern side of Bay and the only ones on board during the attack were the personnel operating them.

It's not terribly surprising that Finnish military called these particular boats "tykkivene" (translates literally as gunboat) - there was nothing like them in Finnish use earlier. Since they had guns (76-mm or 85-mm in later version) it is quite easy to see why they were called this way - gunboat was the closest commonly used category for describing them.

Attached is a detail from one of my grandfathers war photos. It shows similar pontoon ferry and syöksyvene pushing it.

Jarkko
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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2007 19:33

Only 1 min free, especially for my old friend!

Juha wrote:
The Finnish designation of the captured boat was VTV-1
V = Vartio = patrol
T = Tykki = gun
V = Vene = boat
1 = Yksi = one

Yes, for Finns - gunboat or patrol boat [according to my sources], for Soviets - just small armored motor-boat far away from being classified as gunboat.

Juha wrote:
What were the differences between the types 1124 and 1125?

Armored motor-boats of type 1124 were larger than of type 1125.
1124 [97 were built] - 52.2 t, 25.3x4.1x0.9 m, 2x900 hp, 19.4 knots, 325 miles range, 2x76.2mm tank guns [sometimes 132mm "Katyusha" instead of one gun] + 2x12.7mm + 2x7.62mm, 10 mines, 17 men crew.
1125 [151 were built] - 26.5 t, 22.65x3.55x0.56 m, 1x720-800 hp, 19.7 knots, 250 miles range, 1x76.2mm tank gun + 1x12.7mm + 2x7.62mm, 13 men crew.

Juha wrote:
VTV-1 originally had a either T-28 or T-35 turret (do you know which?) and AFAIK no 12.7mm mg's

I mentioned the usual armament for project 1125 [see above]. Some armored motor-boats of that type were armed with turret not from T-34 but from T-28 indeed [only very few cases of T-35 turret is known, all with 1124 project IIRC], some had 76mm Lender guns [without turrets, built during 1941-1942], some - 82mm "Katyusha" instead of gun [WWII modification]. So No. 215 [VTV-1] could have turret from T-28 but it also should be equipped by producing shipyard with small turret for 12.7mm MG above deckhouse.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/small/pic/1125_ld.jpg

Juha wrote:
Never read about being exploded.

My sources mention this - No. 215 was exploded by crew after ran aground. No more info.

Juha wrote:
Never read about such combat.

That combat when two Soviet small armored motor-boats [No. 213 and No. 214, commanders - lieutenants V. Tunguskov and V. Es'kov] ramed 10 enemy vessels full of landing troops and ammunition at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941 was very popular in Soviet sources IIRC. Many info from those sources was very corrected later, some was proved to be truthful initially, but this event is just described now as it was described 20 years ago [so it is not very clear for me was it 100% real event or not]. I also found a mentions that crewmembers of those armored motor-boats confirmed those rammings till the present time. I will try to find some research articles about this.
BKA-213 rammed one German motor-boat also later - 11.06.1944 [Chudskoe/Peipus Lake] according to Russian sources. Germans mentioned that one MAL from 4. AT-Flotillie was lost that day indeed because of artillery fire/ramming attack of two Soviet armored patrol boats against four MAL.

Juha wrote:
Kyrhymjaki = Karhumäki
Vyajne = Väinö

Thanks for the corrections, as I've written - I had no time to check them.

Best regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 19:48

Thanks JTV for the info about the info from E-E Saarinen.
Syöksyvene, Assault boat, Sturmboot ?

Image
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... rmboot.htm

Regards, Juha

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Post by JTV » 07 May 2007 20:03

BIGpanzer wrote:Only 1 min free, especially for my old friend!

Juha wrote:

Never read about being exploded.

My sources mention this - No. 215 was exploded by crew after ran aground. No more info.


I just checked "Itsenäisen Suomen laivatykit 1918 - 2004 / The Naval Guns of Finland 1918 - 1944" by Pekka Kiiskinen and Pasi Wahlman. The boat was first damaged by gunfire of Finnish coastal troops and its crew drove it to shallow water to avoid sinking. The boat could not have been seriously damaged - it was captured in August of 1941 and took part in combat with Finnish crew already in October of the same year (violent recon mission to Someri Island).

BTW: Accoring this book the gun turret was similar as in T-28 medium tanks.

Jarkko

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Post by JTV » 07 May 2007 20:42

Juha Tompuri wrote:Thanks JTV for the info about the info from E-E Saarinen.
Syöksyvene, Assault boat, Sturmboot ?

Image
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... rmboot.htm

Regards, Juha


Those terms are certainly correct. It is pretty much the same boat and similar using methods. Accoring my notes Finnish WW2-era syöksyvene was based to Hungarian boat-model, but Finnish version was wider than than the original. New version made from plywood replaced WW2-era version around year 1955 and also that version has been replaced at least once since (the ones used now are made from aluminium?).

Some additional info (source: Finnish Army military manual "Ponttooniohjesääntö 2" ("Rules and regulations for pontoons 2") published year 1942:
- The boat had V-shaped bottom
- Total weight of boat: 250 kg dry / over 300 kg when wet
- Widest lenght: 1.90 meters
- Total length: 5.50 meters
- Maximum side height: 69 centimeters
- Keel: 3 centimeters, so total height of the boat: 72 centimeters
- The boats could be transported piled on top of each other, when piled up in such way each boat on the top was partly inside the one below it. In this kind of pile each boat took just 20 centimeters.
- The boats had also attachment points for oars and equipment of each boat contained oars.
- Inside the boat on floor were removable grates (as in the photo you supplied)
- Corners of the boat were covered with band irons.
- Equipment for syöksyvene:
1. three oars
2. one small boat hook
3. one buffer (weight 8 kg - intended especially for pushing ferries)
4. three ropes (one for bow and two for aft)
5. one thwart (to sit on)
6. one scoop (for removing water from the boat)
- Maximum transport capacity - rifle squad (of 9 men)

Unfortunately I don't have good photos of the wartime syöksyvene - maybe none have survived to this day. Jalkaväkimuseo (Infantry Museum) in Mikkeli has wartime Kovacs outboard motor. I have been planning to make page of Finnish Army boats and other equipment used for crossing rivers, lakes, etc to my website one day, but I have quite a few subjects to cover first. So much to do and so little time. :wink:

Kovacs motor had 30 horsepower. It was 4.04 meters long, 80 cm wide and weight staggering 132 kg. It had fuel tank of 18 litres and lubrication oil tank of 3 litres - both of them build inside the motor. 8O Fuel consumption was 13 litres/hour (whole fuel tank used in 1 hour 15 minutes). Lubrication oil needed to be replaced every 50 - 60 hours of use. Equipment contained seperate 15 litre fuel container and 4.5 litre container for oil.

The pontoons used in the ferries were likely m/35. Pontoon ferry build from two pontoon of this model had maximum transport capacity for transporting rifle platoon (about 30 men).

Jarkko

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2007 22:19

Jarkko wrote:
I just checked "Itsenäisen Suomen laivatykit 1918 - 2004 / The Naval Guns of Finland 1918 - 1944" by Pekka Kiiskinen and Pasi Wahlman. The boat was first damaged by gunfire of Finnish coastal troops and its crew drove it to shallow water to avoid sinking. The boat could not have been seriously damaged - it was captured in August of 1941 and took part in combat with Finnish crew already in October of the same year (violent recon mission to Someri Island).

BTW: Accoring this book the gun turret was similar as in T-28 medium tanks.


At first - thank you very much for the detailed info about ramming of Finnish vessels by Soviet armored motor-boats ¹ 213 and ¹ 214; and types of small Finnnish landing vessels.

As for B-215, captured by Finns in August 1941. I found the exact info about its armament - as it was armored motor-boat of project 1125 of early series [1937-1941], its armament consisted of 1x76mm gun + 1x7.62mm DT in the turret from T-28, + 3x7.62mm DT in small turrets PB-24 [front, upper and stern], also B-215 could take 6 mines on the deck.
As for its loss in 1941 - I found the following info: 23.08.1941 B-215 participated in evacuation of Soviet troops from islands of Vyborg Bay, was shelled by enemy artillery and ran aground during manoeuvring; crew exploded the motor-boat [most probably, the damage from explosion was not serious - BP].

Best regards, BP

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 22:36

BIGpanzer wrote:Only 1 min free, especially for my old friend!
Thanks.
But I feel young.

BP wrote:Yes, for Finns - gunboat or patrol boat [according to my sources][Actually Patrol gunboat.8quote="BP"] for Soviets - just small armored motor-boat far away from being classified as gunboat.
See above

Thanks for the 1124/1125 info.

BP wrote: So No. 215 [VTV-1] could have turret from T-28 but it also should be equipped by producing shipyard with small turret for 12.7mm MG above deckhouse.
The link Christian posted http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgnKF_P80aE& ... ed&search= at ~ 5min 37 sec time shows the upper turret, with AFAIK a 7,62mm mg

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Never read about being exploded.

My sources mention this - No. 215 was exploded by crew after ran aground. No more info.
Laivat Puuta, Miehet Rautaa (Ship/Boats of Wood, Men of Iron) by Peuranheimo, Pirhonen and Killinen mentiones the VTV-1 under command of Ltn Eero Innamaa, reporting to Finnish Navy inventory on 17th September 1941.

BP wrote:
Juha wrote:Never read about such combat.

That combat when two Soviet small armored motor-boats [No. 213 and No. 214, commanders - lieutenants V. Tunguskov and V. Es'kov] ramed 10 enemy vessels full of landing troops and ammunition at Vyborg Bay 28.08.1941 was very popular in Soviet sources IIRC. Many info from those sources was very corrected later, some was proved to be truthful initially, but this event is just described now as it was described 20 years ago [so it is not very clear for me was it 100% real event or not]. I also found a mentions that crewmembers of those armored motor-boats confirmed those rammings till the present time. I will try to find some research articles about this.
Seems that there were rammings that night there.

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2007 23:00

Juha wrote:
The link Christian posted http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgnKF_P80aE& ... ed&search= at ~ 5min 37 sec time shows the upper turret, with AFAIK a 7,62mm mg

Yes, I've just posted the info above about exact armament of No. 215. It was of early series [1937-1941] whereas armored motor-boats of project 1125 were equipped with 12.7mm DShK in upper turret since 1941 only. No. 215 had main gun turret of T-28 type also [WWII models had turrets from T-34].
Christian wrote:
Finnish Continuation War time newsreel shows Finnish forces using some captured Soviet gunboat.

Much more correct is to say that Finnish forces using some captured Soviet small armored motor-boat which was classified in Finnish navy as patrol gunboat.
See above.
Gunboats were more larger and stronger ships than armored motor-boats of type 1125 according to Soviet classifications.


Finns could capture several Soviet torpedo boats:

1. TKA No. 47 [type G-5] - 26.06.1941 it participated [together with 3 another torpedo boats] in evacuation of HQ and command of Libau naval base to Vindau. Was attacked by German torpedo boats and capitulated in undamaged condition [as such case was quite unusual for Russian/Soviet naval traditions, the loss of traitor boat was described as loss in heavy combat with Germans]. Later Germans gave it to Finns, who used it as "Viima".

2. TKA No. 52 [type D-3] - 14.10.1941 lost his place in group of torpedo boats during mission Gogland-Hango because of storm [near bank Kallbedari], was captured by Finns and used as patrol boat "Vasama". 26.10.1944 - returned back to USSR [used till 06.10.1949].

3. TKA No. 64 [type G-5] - 16.10.1941 ran aground and was captured by Finns, served as No. 122. Returned back to USSR in 1944.

4. TKA No. 141 [type G-5] - 16.10.1941 ran aground and was captured by Finns, served as "Vipuri". Returned back to USSR in 1944.

5. TKA No. 51 [type G-5] - 17.06.1944 was damaged by artillery fire and captured by Finns, served as No. 123. Returned back to USSR in 1944.

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 07 May 2007 23:21, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 May 2007 23:05

Thanks for the info, Jarkko.

JTV wrote: Jalkaväkimuseo (Infantry Museum) in Mikkeli has wartime Kovacs outboard motor.
As did at least the "old" Engineer Museum at Koria
I haven't (yet) visited the new museum at Miehikkälä http://www.salpakeskus.fi/index.php?l=3&path=214,0,0
Most probably there is that example too.
(There is also a possibility that the Kovacsat Mikkeli was loaned from Engineer museum collection)

JTV wrote:So much to do and so little time. :wink:
:)

Regards, Juha

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Post by BIGpanzer » 07 May 2007 23:11

So much to do and so little time.

JTV - :wink: Juha - :) BP - :roll: :(

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