Captured Soviet naval vessels in Finnish use?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Post Reply
User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#61

Post by JTV » 11 May 2007, 20:12

BIGpanzer wrote:guys!
JTV wrote:
Language is politics and politics is language - the language spoken and the phrases used tell about the person speaking and the about the ideals he/she believes.
I don't think so. The language is great culture source and the source of additional interesting info from original literature, nothing common with some ideals if we are talking about well-educated people not about nazis of all kinds [because languages exist for centuries and corresponding ideals/politics change sometimes every dozen years]. If I am the German-native speaker - does this mean that my ideals are SS or Hitler?! The phrases yes - inside the language - I hope you can distinguish easily Finnish professor or musician from Finnish bandit, for example. I also don't understand how the language can show the person's nature - of course, there are some natural characters [quite often stereotypes and myths - positive and negative] of every nation, but as all men are strong individuals that means nothing - are you German, Russian or Finn, what is the difference, especially in today's global world [every well-educated man liked his own language and nation traditions, and respect the languages/traditions of other countries]. At least for European nationalities from Portugal to Russia and from Norway to Greece I don't see any significant diferences from my huge experience of work and friendship with people of different nations; in Asia you can feel the differences with the European style of life/communications, this is true.
I am personally feel the great interest to learn more about grammar and history of every language when I have such a possibility.
How about Finnish professor, who would be also, gifted musician and a bandit. :D I think you some-what misunderstood me here - what I meant is basically: If you know nationality of a person and observe the phrases and terms that he/she prefers to use you have good chance of getting some idea about the ideals behind his/her thinking at least in contemporary matters even without talking about the actual matters. IMHO most (if not all) cultures/languages have phrases and terms loaded with political significance - if you know these then such observations should be quite possible. The terms we all pick without much a though may reveal quite bit of the way in which we are thinking. The country from which the person is from and/or the language he/she talks has no real relevance on its own in this sense. As for the other way around - language, both written and spoken, is the main tool for politicians - and a very powerful tool for that. As for the few details such as writing DShK - I just don't have time to proofread my text so many times in these days.


I am now back home, so I checked my copy of "Aselevon jälkeen". It has six pages about the subject (pages 319 - 324). It seems that Väinämöinen was in pretty poor condition from the war and it received rather large repairs before its transfer to Soviet hands. I am not going to translate the whole text, but here the most important parts: While Väinämöinen survived World War 2 Finnish leadership no longer found it important. Finnish-Soviet peace treaty included large financial payments (for example weaponry acquired from Germany during the war and not yet paid had to be paid to Soviet Union according peace terms). So government of Finland decided to sell Väinämöinen to Soviet Union as part of these payments. The matter demanded new law, which was legislated and approved by Finnish Parliament.

The deal was for Finland to sell the ship with all its weapons, ammunition, equipment, tools, machines, documents etc for price of 265 million Finnish marks. Ministry of Defence was responsible arranging this deal. Väinämöinen had been stripped (of all equipment not necessarily needed?) and was in Pansio naval base (in city of Turku). Its personnel had been mostly transferred elsewhere. From Finnish side the man responsible for preparing the transfer was Chief of staff for Turku naval base Komentaja-kapteeni (Commander) Kaarlo Pakkala, who had four other officers assisting him in this matter. For organising practical matters Finnish Navy had to order or hire about 100 men who knew the ship from previous experience. Representing the Soviets in preparing this transfer was Captain 2nd Class Negoda, who arrived with 8 officers to Turku in 31st of January 1947. About 200 sailors from Soviet Baltic Navy arrived as a new of the ship in late February and their training for using the ships equipment started. Finns supervised this training. The ship needed new paint and cleaning. Some of the toilet seats and sinks needed repairs, oven of officer's mess was broken and both radio-systems and telephone-systems were unfit for duty. All other of these repairs were made, but the oven would have required spare parts from Germany, so it could not be fixed. Two motor boats and spare parts for them were delivered to the ship. Soviets demanded also historical survey about the ship, so this was written and delivered to them. The ship had: 1,372 shots for 254-mm guns, 3,825 shots for 105-mm guns and 12,000 shots for anti-aircraft guns. The Soviets were demanding 2,000 shots for its 254-mm guns, but as 1,372 was all that Finnish Navy had left they settled for taking these with the ship.

According plan this training should have taken 30 days, but it took much more (until the next spring). The book suggests two reasons for this:
1. Soviet officers handing the matter lived very conformably in Finland and enjoyed their stay.
2. Electronic equipment on the ship was more complicated than to which Soviet Navy was used to.

Engines of the ship were tested for 11 hours on idle and besides damaging piers it revealed problems with them - two of the main diesels required repairs.

Finnish flag on ship was replaced with Soviet one in official ceremony 25th of March. Test run (with Finnish supervision and Soviet crew) was 29th of May. The ship sailed 4 hours on full speed during this testing and had no engine trouble this time. Also each 254-mm was tested by firing 1 or 2 shots per gun during this test run and also smaller calibre guns were tested during it. Writing the final transfer documents required several meetings about exact text, but finally 5th of June it was signed. Finnish signee was Commander Saukkonen (Commander of Turku naval base) and Soviet signee Captain 1st Class Suhorukov. Also Rear Admiral Raskonikov took part to this event. The Soviets had promised to pay transfer expenses - some 6.7 million Finnish Marks, but these were never paid. Finns ended up paying also using of the two tugboats, which assisted Väinämöinen/Viborg off from harbour. So the final financial benefit proved to be much less than originally planned. The Soviets took their new ship first to Porkkala, from where it sailed to Kronstadt 29th of August 1947.

Jarkko

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#62

Post by BIGpanzer » 11 May 2007, 21:00

A lot of interesting details, thanks a lot!
1. Soviet officers handing the matter lived very conformably in Finland and enjoyed their stay.
2. Electronic equipment on the ship was more complicated than to which Soviet Navy was used to.
The first reason seems to be more possible [but supervising NKVD officers could make the stay of naval officers not so good].
Electronic equipment of Soviet Navy became more modern in 1947 because of Allied Lend-Lease technique and intensive native development of such kind of equipment since 1944 [during WWII the electronic equipment of Soviet warships was quite poor in general indeed, only several warships/submarines had modern British and newest Soviet electronic equipment but used it quite seldom (or never used at all during missions) because of unexperienced crew]. Among all Soviet navies only North Navy had near excellent providing with US, British and Soviet radio-electronic equipment [radars, hydroacoustics, etc.] and used them widely during the second half of WWII.

Regards, BP
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 12 May 2007, 00:34, edited 1 time in total.


User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#63

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 May 2007, 23:01

Some posts about translating names of places and equipment were moved to a thread of their own.
Please continue the possible discussion about them at there: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 46#1056546


/Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#64

Post by BIGpanzer » 12 May 2007, 18:14

Seems to be that our discussions switched from ex-Soviet vessels in Finnish service to ex-Finnish vessels in Soviet service :wink:

Well, to stay in topic I checked all warships of Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy, Ladoga Flotilla and Onega Flotilla - only 5 vessels were in Finnish service for some period of time during WWII [1 small armored motor-boat and 4 torpedo motor-boats, we've discussed here already]; on the other side - Ladoga Flotilla used two ex-Finnish gunboats captured in spring 1940.
JTV wrote:
I am now back home, so I checked my copy of "Aselevon jälkeen". It has six pages about the subject (pages 319 - 324). It seems that Väinämöinen was in pretty poor condition from the war and it received rather large repairs before its transfer to Soviet hands. I am not going to translate the whole text, but here the most important parts: While Väinämöinen survived World War 2 Finnish leadership no longer found it important. Finnish-Soviet peace treaty included large financial payments (for example weaponry acquired from Germany during the war and not yet paid had to be paid to Soviet Union according peace terms). So government of Finland decided to sell Väinämöinen to Soviet Union as part of these payments. The matter demanded new law, which was legislated and approved by Finnish Parliament.

The deal was for Finland to sell the ship with all its weapons, ammunition, equipment, tools, machines, documents etc for price of 265 million Finnish marks. Ministry of Defence was responsible arranging this deal. Väinämöinen had been stripped (of all equipment not necessarily needed?) and was in Pansio naval base (in city of Turku). Its personnel had been mostly transferred elsewhere. From Finnish side the man responsible for preparing the transfer was Chief of staff for Turku naval base Komentaja-kapteeni (Commander) Kaarlo Pakkala, who had four other officers assisting him in this matter. For organising practical matters Finnish Navy had to order or hire about 100 men who knew the ship from previous experience. Representing the Soviets in preparing this transfer was Captain 2nd Class Negoda, who arrived with 8 officers to Turku in 31st of January 1947. About 200 sailors from Soviet Baltic Navy arrived as a new of the ship in late February and their training for using the ships equipment started. Finns supervised this training. The ship needed new paint and cleaning. Some of the toilet seats and sinks needed repairs, oven of officer's mess was broken and both radio-systems and telephone-systems were unfit for duty. All other of these repairs were made, but the oven would have required spare parts from Germany, so it could not be fixed. Two motor boats and spare parts for them were delivered to the ship. Soviets demanded also historical survey about the ship, so this was written and delivered to them. The ship had: 1,372 shots for 254-mm guns, 3,825 shots for 105-mm guns and 12,000 shots for anti-aircraft guns. The Soviets were demanding 2,000 shots for its 254-mm guns, but as 1,372 was all that Finnish Navy had left they settled for taking these with the ship.

According plan this training should have taken 30 days, but it took much more (until the next spring). The book suggests two reasons for this:
1. Soviet officers handing the matter lived very conformably in Finland and enjoyed their stay.
2. Electronic equipment on the ship was more complicated than to which Soviet Navy was used to.

Engines of the ship were tested for 11 hours on idle and besides damaging piers it revealed problems with them - two of the main diesels required repairs.

Finnish flag on ship was replaced with Soviet one in official ceremony 25th of March. Test run (with Finnish supervision and Soviet crew) was 29th of May. The ship sailed 4 hours on full speed during this testing and had no engine trouble this time. Also each 254-mm was tested by firing 1 or 2 shots per gun during this test run and also smaller calibre guns were tested during it. Writing the final transfer documents required several meetings about exact text, but finally 5th of June it was signed. Finnish signee was Commander Saukkonen (Commander of Turku naval base) and Soviet signee Captain 1st Class Suhorukov. Also Rear Admiral Raskonikov took part to this event. The Soviets had promised to pay transfer expenses - some 6.7 million Finnish Marks, but these were never paid. Finns ended up paying also using of the two tugboats, which assisted Väinämöinen/Viborg off from harbour. So the final financial benefit proved to be much less than originally planned. The Soviets took their new ship first to Porkkala, from where it sailed to Kronstadt 29th of August 1947.
As I've already mentioned - a very detailed and interesting info, thanks a lot.

Just few notes as me seems:
Captain 2nd Class, Captain 1st Class = AFAIK Captain 2nd Rank, Captain 1st Rank in Russian/Soviet Navy.
Rear Admiral Raskonikov = Rear Admiral Raskolnikov
Viborg = Vyborg on Russian [Viborg on Swedish, Viipuri on Finnish]

About sale of "Väinämöinen" - the exact reason that it was not allowed for Finland to have armored ships of coast defense, torpedo motor-boats and submarines according to the Treaty of Peace and such vessels should be scrapped or sold; of course, the 2nd variant was more advantageous. All Russian sources I could find mention that Finns wanted to sell the warship for 1.100.000.000 markkaa at first but during long trades agreed to sell it for 265.000.000 markkaa in the end. Soviet crew for the warship was formed from 8th fleet and Kronstadt sea district.
Your data have differences with the data from Russian sources I could find, which is correct?
http://ship.bsu.by/main.asp?id=102809&TPL=1
It was declared that USSR agreed to buy the ship finally 03.03.1947. Captain 2nd Rank G.P. Negoda arrived on board as ship commander 24.03.1947. 22.04.1947 - new warship was included into the list of warships of Soviet Baltic Sea Navy. The Finnish Flag was replaced by Soviet one 05.06.1947. "Vyborg" arrived to Porkkala [Porkkala-Udd] 07.06.1947, it was accepted by 104th brigade of skerry warships of 8th fleet. In February 1949 armored ship of coastal defense "Vyborg" was reclassified as sea-going monitor and accepted by Kronstadt Naval Fortress, since 24.12.1955 - served at Leningrad Naval Base. Under repair in 1952, in March 1953 - moved to Tallinn, under repair/modernization in 1954-1957. "Vyborg" participated in sea manoeuvres quite active in late1940s-1950s. Since 1959 - in reserve, Kronstadt [166th brigade of reserve and training ships]. Removed from service 25.02.1966, the very interesting warship of Finnish design and one of the last world's representative of armored ships of coast defense was given for scrapping 25.09.1966. Interesting, did Finnish Government make any attempts to buy it back and to reequip the famous ship into floating museum?

Best regards, BP

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 11:03
Location: Finland
Contact:

#65

Post by JTV » 12 May 2007, 21:45

BIGpanzer wrote: About sale of "Väinämöinen" - the exact reason that it was not allowed for Finland to have armored ships of coast defense, torpedo motor-boats and submarines according to the Treaty of Peace and such vessels should be scrapped or sold; of course, the 2nd variant was more advantageous.
The particular peace treaty was Paris peace treaty of year 1947. I think you are somewhat misinformed about it - the treaty did not forbid Finland from having coastal defense ships, but for practical reasons made keeping them less than ideal. The peace treaty among other things in its 13th paragraph limited (peacetime) size of Finnish Navy to 10,000 tons and 4,500 men. Hence having coastal defense ship size of Väinämöinen would have taken a big bite from the resources allowed - Väinämöinen was around 3,900 tons. Besides in technical sense big ships with big guns were fast getting outdated at that time. So while many Finns who had served in Väinömöinen were sorry to see it sold on the long run it did sense. The option would have been keeping Väinämöinen - single large old-fashioned ship hogging up 39% of the naval tonnage allowed and much of the other existing resources as well. Hence one could well argue that Finns decided to sell Väinämöinen and concentrate to smaller ships.
BIGpanzer wrote: Your data have differences with the data from Russian sources I could find, which is correct?
http://ship.bsu.by/main.asp?id=102809&TPL=1
It was declared that USSR agreed to buy the ship finally 03.03.1947. Captain 2nd Rank G.P. Negoda arrived on board as ship commander 24.03.1947. 22.04.1947 - new warship was included into the list of warships of Soviet Baltic Sea Navy. The Finnish Flag was replaced by Soviet one 05.06.1947. "Vyborg" arrived to Porkkala [Porkkala-Udd] 07.06.1947, it was accepted by 104th brigade of skerry warships of 8th fleet. In February 1949 armored ship of coastal defense "Vyborg" was reclassified as sea-going monitor and accepted by Kronstadt Naval Fortress, since 24.12.1955 - served at Leningrad Naval Base. Under repair in 1952, in March 1953 - moved to Tallinn, under repair/modernization in 1954-1957. "Vyborg" participated in sea manoeuvres quite active in late1940s-1950s. Since 1959 - in reserve, Kronstadt [166th brigade of reserve and training ships]. Removed from service 25.02.1966, the very interesting warship of Finnish design and one of the last world's representative of armored ships of coast defense was given for scrapping 25.09.1966. Interesting, did Finnish Government make any attempts to buy it back and to reequip the famous ship into floating museum?
Unfortunately as Navy is not my area of expertise I don't have other sources to compare these. Hopefully others can provide some. I have never heard of any attempts to re-acquire Väinämöinen/Vyborg - for museum-use or otherwise. Having read some about Finnish political leadership of 1960's for them to support anything like that would have been very unlikely. :roll:

Jarkko

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#66

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 May 2007, 22:14

BIGpanzer wrote:Well, to stay in topic I checked all warships of Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy, Ladoga Flotilla and Onega Flotilla - only 5 vessels were in Finnish service for some period of time during WWII
Only?
BP wrote:[1 small armored motor-boat and 4 torpedo motor-boats, we've discussed here already]

A google search about the vessel designations you use:
"small armored motor-boat" (=quite direct translation from Russian) 0 hits
"torpedo motor-boat" (=quite direct translation from Russian) - 62 hits
For comparison:
"motor torpedo boat" (=international designation) 56200 hits
BP wrote:I checked all warships of Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy, Ladoga Flotilla and Onega Flotilla - only 5 vessels were in Finnish service for some period of time during WWII
Also (at least) 10 Soviet minesweeper boats.
Also few captured tugs might have been at Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy/Ladoga Flotilla/Onega Flotilla service.



BP wrote:About sale of "Väinämöinen" - the exact reason that it was not allowed for Finland to have armored ships of coast defense
Nope
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat ... 948/2.html

BP wrote: Interesting, did Finnish Government make any attempts to buy it back and to reequip the famous ship into floating museum?
AFAIK no.
Which was a shame.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#67

Post by BIGpanzer » 13 May 2007, 02:28

JTV wrote:
The particular peace treaty was Paris peace treaty of year 1947. I think you are somewhat misinformed about it - the treaty did not forbid Finland from having coastal defense ships, but for practical reasons made keeping them less than ideal. The peace treaty among other things in its 13th paragraph limited (peacetime) size of Finnish Navy to 10,000 tons and 4,500 men.
Yes, thanks. I just found the similar info also.
http://heninen.net/sopimus/1947_e.htm
Juha wrote:
A google search about the vessel designations you use:
"small armored motor-boat" (=quite direct translation from Russian) 0 hits
"torpedo motor-boat" (=quite direct translation from Russian) - 62 hits
For comparison:
"motor torpedo boat" (=international designation) 56200 hits
Everybody understand this and I am used to use them in the case of translations, OK? :wink: MTB is better [international] and more easy to type, I will use it for sure [also PT boat, attack boat, mosquito boat are in use]. As for armored motor-boat - this is correct/understandable term but which one do you prefer personally [different classifications]: armored launch, armored boat, motor gunboat, river gunboat? - in my opinion armored boat is better as river gunboats were usually larger [reequipped civil paddle steamers quite often]
Juha wrote:
Also (at least) 10 Soviet minesweeper boats.
Also few captured tugs might have been at Red Banner Baltic Sea Navy/Ladoga Flotilla/Onega Flotilla service.
About several Ladoga steamers [which were abandoned/sank in 1941 by Soviet crews mainly] - yes, I've already mentioned some here [but they were unarmed civil vessels and that is why they are not mentioned in the list of Soviet warships of main classes of WWII period]; the same for ~20 abandoned Onega steamers/tugs [left during Soviet retreat from Svir,Petrozavodsk, Povenets in quite good condition; Finns started their reequipment into gunboats and patrol boats since 10.1941] - they were civil vessels.

Soviets also captured/took several Finnish vessels at Ladoga in spring 1940 [I saw recently the exact list even, but need to find it again - Finns should give all their Ladoga vessels to USSR according to Peace Treaty 1940, and they could evacuate only 4 motor-boats]. Only 2 of them were armed and included into Soviet naval units [Ladoga Flotilla] as warships [gunboat "Sheksna"/ex-"Aallokas" and mine-sweeper TShch-100/ex-"Aunus"].
Also, for example, several landing barges were captured by Soviets 22.10.1942 when German-Finnish operation to capture Island Suho on Ladoga failed - http://heninen.net/laatokka-war/english.htm
http://militera.lib.ru/h/shirokorad1/10_08.html
At least one captured Siebel landing barge/ferry was repaired and renamed as DB-51 by Soviets.

As for minesweeper boats [mine-sweeping motorboats on Russian, most probably] - no mentions about such a facts in the list of Soviet warships also [as you understand, all warship careers are known at the moment]. If you are right - they were unarmed or mobilized very small ex-civil vessels, most probably; or were in use by NKVD units not Navy.
I am wondering why did you not post the info about them here instead of long discussions about coastal defense armored ships, which had nothing common with the topic and was clear from the beginning [that several classifications fpr them existed] :wink: Please, provide me with their names [Soviet and/or Finnish], and I will check this [and post info, of course].
For example, quite many Soviet mine-sweeping motorboats of type "R" were used by Baltic Navy during the Winter war, but there are no mentions that at least one of them was captured/found by Finns in 1939-1944.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/smallminesweepers/typ_r.htm#r

Regards, BP

P.S. During the operation "Tanne Ost" Finns captured 10 German motorboats and 2 abandoned landing barges [F-117 and B-35, 180-200 tons].

P.S.2. [see above].
1) Finns used as mine-sweepers of type "Narvi" (400 tons; "Narvi", "Jurmo" and "Luppi") 3 tugs which were built in Finland for USSR in 1940/41 and confiscated when the war in 1941 began.
2) Finns also used as mine-sweepers of type "Viipuri" (335 tons; No. 761-764) 4 tugs which were built in Finland for USSR in 1940/41 and confiscated when the war in 1941 began.
Mine-sweeper "Viipuri" No.761 (03.11.1944 all 4 tugs were given to USSR as part of war reparations) - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/minesweepers/pic/viipuri.jpg

As I've mentioned - I didn't read about any Soviet mine-sweepers and mine-sweepeing boats in Finnish service but Finns used 9 mine-sweeping boats built for Imperial Russia and captured in 1918 [2-3 of them were lost during WWII].

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#68

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 May 2007, 21:57


User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#69

Post by BIGpanzer » 14 May 2007, 00:31

Juha wrote:
Also (at least) 10 Soviet minesweeper boats.
Never read about such an info. Please, provide me with their names(tactical numbers) in Soviet and/or Finnish service, and their specifications [deadweight and length] to understand the type.
Also any details/data about those vessels you've read in your sources. I will check this.

Regards, BP

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#70

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 May 2007, 23:45

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote: Also (at least) 10 Soviet minesweeper boats.
Never read about such an info. Please, provide me with their names(tactical numbers) in Soviet and/or Finnish service, and their specifications [deadweight and length] to understand the type.
Also any details/data about those vessels you've read in your sources. I will check this.
According to Erik Wihtol at Sotahistoriallinen Aikakauskirja 16 (Journal of Military History) mentions the following:
10 Soviet KM-type boats were captured during the Continuation war
-2 at Hanko (they got Finnish codes GS-1 and GS-2)
-8 were captured at Koivisto (Primorsk) and Lake Ladoga (got codes A-60 to A-67)
-GS-boats were used as minesweepers at Finnish use (armed with 1x20mm Madsen)
-The boats were returned to USSR 26th and 30th Oct-44 (According to the Allied Contol Comission, the boats were to be used as minesweepers)
BP wrote:As I've mentioned - I didn't read about any Soviet mine-sweepers and mine-sweepeing boats in Finnish service but Finns used 9 mine-sweeping boats built for Imperial Russia and captured in 1918
In Finnish service these boat were used at many different duties (including minesweeping)

Here is what I believe is a Soviet KM-boat
Image
http://vmk.vif2.ru/battles/WWII/Sommers/Sommers.htm Interesting looking site about the battle of Someri (Sommers)

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#71

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 May 2007, 01:52

Juha wrote:
According to Erik Wihtol at Sotahistoriallinen Aikakauskirja 16 (Journal of Military History) mentions the following:
10 Soviet KM-type boats were captured during the Continuation war
-2 at Hanko (they got Finnish codes GS-1 and GS-2)
-8 were captured at Koivisto (Primorsk) and Lake Ladoga (got codes A-60 to A-67)
-GS-boats were used as minesweepers at Finnish use (armed with 1x20mm Madsen)
-The boats were returned to USSR 26th and 30th Oct-44 (According to the Allied Contol Comission, the boats were to be used as minesweepers)
OK, if those were KM-type boats they are mentioned in details by databases/reference-books about Soviet warships of WWII quite seldom. So I need to make additional search about them to confirm/contradict/add something to your info.
You mentioned that GS-boats were used as minesweepers, what about A60-67?
As for Hanko - naval base had 4 tugs, 20 torpedo boats G-5 [14 were called back 22.06.1941, other 6 - soon], 7 patrol boats MO. No mentions about KM-type boats in my sources.
Juha wrote:
http://vmk.vif2.ru/battles/WWII/Sommers/Sommers.htm Interesting looking site about the battle of Someri (Sommers)
Hey, Juha! Don't be a competitor, Russian sites are my field of research :lol:

As for Soviet mine-sweeping boats of KM-type - two types existed:

1) KM-2 [7 tons], 41 were used as mine-sweeping boats, 5 - as AA boats and 72 - as patrol boats of all navies.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/small/pic/km4p.jpg
No mentions here about any captures by Finns -
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/smallminesweep ... m2.htm#km2

2) KM-4 [12 tons], 184 were used as mine-sweeping boats and 62 - as patrol boats of all navies.
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/smallminesweep ... km4_31.jpg
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/smallminesweep ... m4_911.jpg [compare with the picture you've posted - KM-4 as boat for smoke screen]
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/small/pic/sk608.jpg
No mentions here about any captures by Finns -
http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/smallminesweepers/typ_km4.htm

So I will make additional search, and I can assume at the moment that some of those small boats which are listed as lost [artillery fire, bombs, mine, etc] were found and repaired by Finns later.

Regards, BP

P.S. During my searches about Soviet/Finnish mine-sweepers [still unsuccessful] I found the site about Soviet 51st mine-and-torpedo air regiment (IIRC I've mentioned it during our talks about bombing raids against Helsinki and other Finnish cities in 1944), because bomber of that regiment [pilot Nikolaenko] sank "Vilppula" and "Merkurius" together 25.07.1944 in Porkkala. Note the last line - thanks Juha Tompuri for the materials :wink:
Some sources mention the date as 24.04.1944. Which is correct?

P.S.2. All my litarature sources don't mention any captured Soviet mine-sweeping boats in Finnish service :roll: . They mention that Finland had the following mine-sweeping boats: "Ajonpaa"-type [2 boats, 52 t, purchased in Denmark in 1943], "Ahven"-type [6 boats, 17 tons, built in Finland in 1936-37], "Kuha"-type [8 boats, 17 tons, built in Finland in 1941-1942, 4 exploded on mines during WWII], SM-type [4 boats, 20 tons, built in Finland in 1938-1940, 1 exploded on mine during WWII], A-type/AF-2/BVA & BVD [9 ex-Imperial Russian, 9-25 tons; captured in 1918, 2-3 were lost during WWII], several reequipped small tugs [A-5, several DR].

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#72

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 May 2007, 07:43

BIGpanzer wrote:d I can assume at the moment that some of those small boats which are listed as lost [artillery fire, bombs, mine, etc] were found and repaired by Finns later.
Thats how I figure it too.


BP wrote:P.S. During my searches about Soviet/Finnish mine-sweepers [still unsuccessful] I found the site about Soviet 51st mine-and-torpedo air regiment (IIRC I've mentioned it during our talks about bombing raids against Helsinki and other Finnish cities in 1944), because bomber of that regiment [pilot Nikolaenko] sank "Vilppula" and "Merkurius" together 25.07.1944 in Porkkala. Note the last line - thanks Juha Tompuri for the materials :wink:
Some sources mention the date as 24.04.1944. Which is correct?
At least I still stick to my earlier opinion.


Regards, Juha

P.S. haven't been able to open any of the sovnavy-ww2 pages

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#73

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 May 2007, 15:59

Juha wrote:
P.S. haven't been able to open any of the sovnavy-ww2 pages
This is very strange as I have no problems at all. IIRC you could open those pages several months before during our old discussions [IIRC you found the info about Levkov's air cushion MTBs there].

Do you know the exact year(s) when Finns could capture those 10 KM-boats [according to your source].

Can you open the main page - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/ ?
Here are the images of Soviet KM-boats [mine-sweeping and patrol] from that database.

Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

#74

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 May 2007, 17:21

BIGpanzer wrote:
Juha wrote:
P.S. haven't been able to open any of the sovnavy-ww2 pages
This is very strange as I have no problems at all. IIRC you could open those pages several months before during our old discussions [IIRC you found the info about Levkov's air cushion MTBs there].
For some time that site has been inaccessable to me.
BP wrote:Do you know the exact year(s) when Finns could capture those 10 KM-boats [according to your source].
1941
Can you find them from the vessels returned to USSR?
Are there any Soviet "lists" about them?
BP wrote:Can you open the main page - http://sovnavy-ww2.by.ru/ ?
Let see....Yep! now it works.
Everything seems to work.
...I'll have several pages from your earlier posts to check...

Regards, Juha

User avatar
BIGpanzer
Member
Posts: 2812
Joined: 12 Dec 2004, 23:51
Location: Central Europe

#75

Post by BIGpanzer » 15 May 2007, 17:48

Juha wrote:
Let see....Yep! now it works.
Everything seems to work.
Good!
Juha wrote:
1941
Can you find them from the vessels returned to USSR?
Are there any Soviet "lists" about them?
I have not read about such "list" of returned back vessels only. 1941 - yes, possible date taking into consideration very hard situation on Eastern Front. But there is a small problem, the majority of KM-boats were produced in 1943 IIRC. So I need to check the fates of KM-boats, which were built in 1930s-1941, this is more easy.

Regards, BP

Post Reply

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”