Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

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Baltas
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Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#1

Post by Baltas » 17 Jun 2007, 20:34

Splitted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=122467 ( Soviet-Finnisch monument in Karelia )
BIGpanzer wrote:I saw quite similar monument ["Cross of Sorrow"] on our way with Russian colleagues to Petrozavodsk [IIRC road Petrozavodsk-Suojärvi] in Russian Karelia, that was several years ago. I even found several Soviet and Finnish cartridge cases there during 10 min rest [that was the place where Soviet 18th infantry division and 34th light tank brigade were encircled and defeated because of quite idiotic command and absence of food supplies]. I bought in Lemetti small book on Karelian/Russian about the event, fortunatelly, I still have it and found it easily. Here is the corresponding part from that book.
From 18000 men of those two units - 2500 were not encircled and survived, 1237 men [including 900 wounded and frostbitten] could came out from the ring in 40 days under the leadership of colonel Alekseev 28/02/1940, others were lost [all men from 34th light tank brigade were lost as they covered retreat of infantrymen]. Finnish units [battalions of 36, 37, 38 and 39th regiments, operated in the Lemetti area] had serious losses also - some battalions lost near half of their men [for example, 3rd battalion of 39th regiment had 731 men 26.12.1939 and 426 men 01.02.1940, similar situation was in other Finnish battalions].

Heavily wounded commander of 18th division Kondrashev was taken out by his soldiers from Finnish ring, but he was arrested by NKVD in a hospital and was shot soon. Finnish soldiers found and burried the bodies of 4300 Soviet soldiers from those two units, including the body of the commander of 34th light tank brigade Kondratiev. It should be noted that Kondratiev ordered to leave the heavily wounded soldiers and didn't take them during attempt to came out from the Finnish ring despite the order from HQ to evacuate all wounded soldiers, and the date of breakthrough was hidden from all wounded men. When Soviets returned back to Lemetti after the Winter War they found horrible picture - Finns exploded and burnt all dugouts with 120 Soviet wounded soldiers, many of them were bent to their beds with steel wire, throats of several dozens soldiers were cut by knives
/Juha



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BIGpanzer wrote:
When Soviets returned back to Lemetti after the Winter War they found horrible picture - Finns exploded and burnt all dugouts with 120 Soviet wounded soldiers, many of them were bent to their beds with steel wire, throats of several dozens soldiers were cut by knives
I think it's good example of modern Russia propaganda wanderings like Manila shots or even more funny attacking Line of Mannerheim from modern Russian propaganda site http://www.iremember.ru/infantry/krutsk ... tskikh.htm.

BIGpanzer can you suport your claims by independent sources?

Regard Baltas

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#2

Post by Semenov » 17 Jun 2007, 20:53

Hi Baltas!
Karelia is old Russian province (not soviet).


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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#3

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Jun 2007, 22:16

Baltas wrote:BIGpanzer can you suport your claims by independent sources?
IIRC at that time Finns were afraid of possible typhus(?) contamination from the Soviet side, and the soldiers were ordered not to enter the Soviet living quarters, but to destroy(burn )them.
So there might have been cases that left behind inhabitants of the Soviet dugouts got (accidentaly) killed when destroying the dugouts without before checking were there anyone in.
Don't know for sure.

About the propaganda part of the case, it might have been originated from as reliable source as this:
Molotov wrote: How far the enmity toward our country on the part of the Finnish ruling and military circles, who had prepared a place d'armes against the USSR, had gone, is also seen from the numerous cases of exceptionally barbarous atrocities perpetrated by the Finnish Whites on wounded Red Army men who had fallen into their hands. For example, when, in one of the districts to the north of Lake Ladoga, the Finns surrounded our hospital dugouts where 120 severely wounded men were lying, the White Finns killed them all to a man. Some were burned, others were found with shattered skulls, while the rest had been bayoneted or shot. In addition to mortal wounds, a large number of the men who died there and in other places were found to have been shot in the head or finished off with rifle butts, while some of the men who had been shot were found to have knife stabs in the face. Some of the corpses had been beheaded and the heads could not be found. And for our medical nurses who fell into the hands of the Finnish Whites, they were subjected to special atrocities and incredible brutalities. In some cases corpses were found tied to trees, head down. All these barbarities and countless atrocities were a fruit of the policy of the Finnish whiteguards, who endeavoured to fan hatred toward our country among their people.

Such is the true face of these Finnish champions of "western civilization".
http://www.histdoc.net/history/molotov.html

Regards, Juha

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#4

Post by Art » 18 Jun 2007, 12:01

The story was described in the known article of Pavel Aptekar' about the fate of encircled units:
http://rkka.vif2.ru/oper/finn/okrujenye.htm
He made a reference to the documents of the staff of Soviet 15th Army.
http://rkka.vif2.ru/oper/finn/okrujenye.htm#s49
Not intending to dicsuss the credibility of these records I just want to point to the fact of widely circulating rumours about Finns treating the prisoners in a cruel manner.
Last edited by Art on 20 Jun 2007, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.

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karelija

#5

Post by Baltas » 18 Jun 2007, 20:29

Hi Semenov

Can you show me evidences that Karelia was ethnic land of Russians(slavs) or maybe it become Russian province after occupying conquering wars.

Now it sounds like India old England province.

Regard Baltas

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#6

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Jun 2007, 22:52

Baltas,

Let's stick to the topic.
Discussions about fates of Carelia should be done at another thread.

Regards, Juha

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#7

Post by Juha Tompuri » 18 Jun 2007, 23:56

Art wrote:The story was described in the known article of Pavel Aptekar' about the fate of encircled units:
http://rkka.vif2.ru/oper/finn/okrujenye.htm.
Thanks Art,
the little I've read about P. Aptekar rates him quite good source of information.

As I don't read Russian, the link(s) you posted do not "open" me completely with just Babelfish.
If I've understood correctly this is the part about the fates of the 120 wounded:
Интересно, чувствовал ли угрызения совести раненый комбриг Кондрашев, которого несли на руках, оставляя более 120 своих тяжелораненых соратников в землянках на голодную и холодную смерть, или надеялся на доброту финнов, окружавших его гарнизон. Впрочем то, что сделали финны с оставленными ранеными, также, судя по документам штаба 15 армии, далеко не только от норм Гаагской конвенции, но и обыкновенной человечности: часть землянок была забросана гранатами (некоторые раненые, возможно, пытались сопротивляться), а часть землянок была уже после заключения мирного договора обнаружена сожженными, причем некоторые обгоревшие скелеты сохранили следы колючей проволоки, которой беззащитных людей прикрутили к нарам.[49]

Автор книги “Тайны финской войны" Борис Соколов высказал мнение, что раненых могли прикончить специальная группа НКВД, однако его предположения пока не имеют под собой документального или мемуарного обоснования, что же касается финских источников, то в изученной автором литературе сведений об этом обнаружено не было, а документы финского военно-судебного ведомства у меня просто не было времени: дай Бог было за неделю изучить боевые документы 4-го финского корпуса.
http://rkka.vif2.ru/oper/finn/okrujenye.htm

Could you, or someone else translate it?

Regards, Juha

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#8

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Jun 2007, 01:22

Someone else :wink: can try to translate. As for P. Aptekar - personally I think too, that he is a good researcher of facts of Winter war period, but I read several opinions of Finnish and Russian historians about him: they wrote that P. Aptekar can find every data about every even smallest unit of Winter war period but quite often he compares and analyzes data in a strange way, which causes as the result strange conclusions differ from another research articles.
Èíòåðåñíî, ÷óâñòâîâàë ëè óãðûçåíèÿ ñîâåñòè ðàíåíûé êîìáðèã Êîíäðàøåâ, êîòîðîãî íåñëè íà ðóêàõ, îñòàâëÿÿ áîëåå 120 ñâîèõ òÿæåëîðàíåíûõ ñîðàòíèêîâ â çåìëÿíêàõ íà ãîëîäíóþ è õîëîäíóþ ñìåðòü, èëè íàäåÿëñÿ íà äîáðîòó ôèííîâ, îêðóæàâøèõ åãî ãàðíèçîí. Âïðî÷åì òî, ÷òî ñäåëàëè ôèííû ñ îñòàâëåííûìè ðàíåíûìè, òàêæå, ñóäÿ ïî äîêóìåíòàì øòàáà 15 àðìèè, äàëåêî íå òîëüêî îò íîðì Ãààãñêîé êîíâåíöèè, íî è îáûêíîâåííîé ÷åëîâå÷íîñòè: ÷àñòü çåìëÿíîê áûëà çàáðîñàíà ãðàíàòàìè (íåêîòîðûå ðàíåíûå, âîçìîæíî, ïûòàëèñü ñîïðîòèâëÿòüñÿ), à ÷àñòü çåìëÿíîê áûëà óæå ïîñëå çàêëþ÷åíèÿ ìèðíîãî äîãîâîðà îáíàðóæåíà ñîææåííûìè, ïðè÷åì íåêîòîðûå îáãîðåâøèå ñêåëåòû ñîõðàíèëè ñëåäû êîëþ÷åé ïðîâîëîêè, êîòîðîé áåççàùèòíûõ ëþäåé ïðèêðóòèëè ê íàðàì.[49]

Àâòîð êíèãè “Òàéíû ôèíñêîé âîéíû" Áîðèñ Ñîêîëîâ âûñêàçàë ìíåíèå, ÷òî ðàíåíûõ ìîãëè ïðèêîí÷èòü ñïåöèàëüíàÿ ãðóïïà ÍÊÂÄ, îäíàêî åãî ïðåäïîëîæåíèÿ ïîêà íå èìåþò ïîä ñîáîé äîêóìåíòàëüíîãî èëè ìåìóàðíîãî îáîñíîâàíèÿ, ÷òî æå êàñàåòñÿ ôèíñêèõ èñòî÷íèêîâ, òî â èçó÷åííîé àâòîðîì ëèòåðàòóðå ñâåäåíèé îá ýòîì îáíàðóæåíî íå áûëî, à äîêóìåíòû ôèíñêîãî âîåííî-ñóäåáíîãî âåäîìñòâà ó ìåíÿ ïðîñòî íå áûëî âðåìåíè: äàé Áîã áûëî çà íåäåëþ èçó÷èòü áîåâûå äîêóìåíòû 4-ãî ôèíñêîãî êîðïóñà.
Interesting, did wounded brigade commander Kondrashev [who was carried by his soldiers on hands] feel a remorse as he left more than 120 wounded soldiers in dugouts for cold and hungry death, or did he hope for Finnish kindness, encircled his garrison. What the Finns did with those wounded men was, according to documents of 15th Army HQ, very far away not only from the Hague convention but from usual human morale - part of dugouts was exploded by hand grenades [some wounded men tried to resist, probably], and part of dugouts were found [after Peace Treaty] burnt - some skeletons were attached to their beds with barbed wire....

The author of the book "Secrets of Winter War" Boris Sokolov gave the opinion that wounded men could be killed by special group of NKVD, but his suppositions don't have any memoires and documental confirmations at the moment. As for Finnish sources - no info was found in investigated by author literature, and I don't have time to read the documents of Finnish military-justice(? - if I understand correctly, BP) office, god grant to investigate the documents of 4th Finnish corps during one week.

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#9

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Jun 2007, 02:18

About Finnish cruelty - quite many veterans of Karelian front mention it together with Finnish bravery and discipline. Ex-artilleryman Mikhail Lukinov, who participated in Winter war, defence of Hanko and combats in Karelia during Great Patriotic war, wrote in his recent memoires [2004 IIRC], that many cases of Finnish brutality are known - Finnish soldiers often killed wounded men after combats with knives. He saw personally through binocular that Finnish snipers killed wounded soldiers on the battlefield, and it was impossible to evacuate those soldiers because of sniper fire. One of the wounded man told [he was evacuated during the night time] him that Finnish soldiers killed wounded men after combat and one Finn noticed him and said on Russian: "Lie in rest, Ivan", and didn't kill him because that Finn thought, probably, that Soviet soldier would die himself at low temperature. Soviet propaganda increased the rumors about barbarian Finns during the war, but Soviet veterans of Karelian front often saw such cases of Finnish cruelty indeed and were very horrified with such cases [impossible actions for the majority of Russian soldiers, don't mentioned the majority of damned NKVD guys and some criminal bastards in the army, of course]. A little bit off-topic but to be objective: In almost all published and translated interviews I saw the questions about cruelty of enemies and cruelty of own soldiers - all Russian veterans answered, for example, that any cruelty or pillage of avenging Soviet soldiers in Hungary and Germany was punished by immediate shooting in front of the unit in most cases, despite of rank and awards. But quite many veterans saw several cases of pillage or rapes when Soviet soldiers entered Western Europe [in most cases that was done by rear units with low level of morale, which never participated in combats - and soon the strictest order appeared: shoot such bastards immediately as Soviet army came to liberate Europe from fascism], later NKVD units tried to accomplisg such order for 100% and tried to find any cases, so sometimes even Stalingrad veterans were executed for theft of several eggs, for example [that was all according to published interviews].

Well, returning back to Finnish cases.
Veterans D. Zlatkin and T. Kattonen [Finn, served in Soviet ski battalion in 1939-1944] mentioned [interviews/memoires of 2005] several cases of murders of Soviet hospital staff and wounded men by Finnish ski diversion groups - sometimes all Soviet doctors, nurses and wounded soldiers were cruelly killed by knives of Finnish skiers, which attacked distant forest hospitals and disappeared immediately.

Regards, BP

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#10

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 19 Jun 2007, 02:59

I read about the several facts of murder by the Finnish soldiers soviet POW In any case, Pavel Aptekar and Benya Sokoloff not the most good sources. Aptekar it is better. It worked in the some archives in the beginning 1990 õ years. However its conclusions are often far from true...

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#11

Post by BIGpanzer » 19 Jun 2007, 03:32

Returning back completelly to the topic - losses in Lemetti. They are known quite good, some problems in place names [taken from Russian and German litarature] are possible, sorry in advance. References I will give tomorrow, very much want to sleep :roll: and try to finish the post as soon as possible, sorry :wink:

Near 5000 men with ~100 tanks, >10 guns were encircled in Lemetti, 2 battalions of 402nd regiment and 2 battalions of 462nd regiments tried to deblockade encircled men, but they could reach Ruskaset area only where united with 2 infantry, 1 howitzer regiments, separate tank and recon battalions of 18th division, recon battalion and 2 companies of 34th light tank brigade.

Garrison Uoma and group Lemetti-Mitro: units of Soviet 18th and 60th infantry divisions - more than 2200 men [more than half - wounded and frostbeaten], 16 tanks, 12 guns were encircled. Near Lake Sarijärvi - 500 men with 3 tanks and 8 guns were encircled. Lovajärvi area - infantry and ski battalions and artillery battery were encircled. 168th infantry division could defend its area and capture several hills nearby, despite its significant losses in previous combats before and sent 3 battalions to help 18th division - so 168th division could withstand Finnish siege/ring during 2 months and prevented several strong Finnish attempts to capture the road across Ladoga.

Soviet garrison "near the crossroads" 25.01.1940 sent the radiomessage: "Encircled 16 days, 500 men are wounded, noi ammunition, food, eat the last horse". 02.02. Finns destroyed Lemetti-North - more than 700 Soviet soldiers were killed/captured [also 32 tanks mainly damaged, 7 guns and mortars, 30 trucks were captured], only 20 soldiers could reach Lemetti-South. 05.02. - garrison "near the crossroads" sent the radiomessage: "Hard situation, all horses were eaten, no supplies delivery. 600 men are ill. Hunger. Death." 08.02 - new radiomessage "Food supplies were dropped to the east, but some part was found". 13.02 and 22.02. two more radiomessages were sent "Death from hunger. Drop more, help, can't resist".

15.02. Finns strengthened attack against garrison Mitro-Ruskaset [garrison of "four encircled regiments"] - those were battalions of 208th and 316th regiments, batteries of 3rd artillery and 12th howitzer regiments of 18th division. 18.02. garrison of 1700 soldiers [half were wounded and frostbeaten] tried to organize breakthrough to unite with 168th division. All men from 83rf tank and 224th recon battalions of 34th brigade were lost in combat as they covered breakthrough. Men from Ruskaset were lost in combat also - only 30 of them reached positions of 168th division. Finns captured 20 tanks, 34 guns, 6 AA MGs, 63 MGs, 17 tractors, 25 trucks, 250 soldiers.

Garrison of Lavajärvi was more successful - 14.02. it could attack Finns and threw them back, 16.02. soldiers reached Soviet positions - 810 survivors could save 34 MGs, but all guns were lost.

Finns had significant losses also [I have exact data, but no time, generally with few exceptions - near 1/2-1/3 of each battalions of 36th, 37 and 38, 64 regiments were lost].

Garrison Uoma under the command of captain Kasatkin sent the radio message 02.02: "encircled 16 days, 500 men were wounded, no food and ammunition, wounded men are almost dead". 23.02: "Please, help. No possibility to resisst, all are ill and wounded, 40 days encircled". Soon survived soldiers could unite with units of 15th army.

23.02. garrison of Sarijärvi was lost - after the war 131 dead bodies from 3rd battalion of 97th regiment were found there, and 2 large graves. Finns captured 12 guns, 4 mortars, 4 tanks and 60 MGs.

23.02. garrison "near the crossroads" radioed "40 days encircled, no healthy men, help, no info from Sarijärvi garrison...".25-27.02. ski squadron tried to reach the garrison, but only 3 men could did this, others were killed/captured.

26.02. - Lemetti-south sent message to 56th corps: "Help, attack Finns, why no attacks from you? Drop food and cigarettes. Saw yestedya 3 TB-3, why they dropped nothing?". HQ of 56th corps asked to stop sent panic messages, and because it was impossible to land heavy TB-3 there [Soviet encircled area was 1000x400m only] ordered to perform breakthrough. 3261 men of Lemetti began the breakthrough with 2 groups - north group under leadership of brigade commander Kondratiev, south group - HQ commander of 18th division colonel Alekseev. The breakthrough was organized extremelly bad - even commanders didn't know in which group were their units, 2-3 tanks BT-7 were planned to use for support but nobody informs their crews.Wounded soldiers were not evacuated [see above], the major part of abandoned guns and tanks were not damaged. Kondratiev group was almost all lost during breakthrough - but survivors could save the banner of brigade. Brigade commander Kondratiev , commissar, HQ commander of 34 light tank brigade put pistols to their heads, later their bodies together with bodies of 4300 soldiers of 18th division and 34th brigade were burried by Finns. Heavily wounded commander of 18th division was saved by soldiers, 04.03. he was arrested in a hospital by NKVD.
Group of colonel Alekseev performed breakthrough - 1237 men [including 900 wounded and frostbeaten] reached Soviet positions, only 48 were lost during breakthrough. But Finns captured the banner of 18th division, so that unit was disbanded.

General conclusion of HQ 0f 8th army - 18th division and 34th light tank brigade were blocked by Finns along the road Uoma-Lemetti, Ruskaset - 13 garrisons total were established. Commanders and commissars can't organize the defense in wright way, didn't use tanks and guns, no trenches were made during 2 months of siege, all nearby hills were given to Finns without any defence and no any attempts to take those hills back were made by command of those 2 units, they could send only panic telegramms. Breakthrough was organized in the worsest way, commanders didn't participate in organization of it. 168th division despite of high losses [6000 men were killed/captured since the beginning of the war] and food shortage performed much better [and its commanders didn't panic] and controlled road along ladoga lake despite of strong Finnish attacks and artillery fire.

8th army, operated to the east of Ladoga, consisted of 1st infantry corps [139,155 division; 47 artillery regiment] and 56th infantry corps [56, 18, 168 divisions], 34th light tank brigade, 49 and 467 artillery regiments, 10th howitzer regiment. Near 100.000 men total. Losses - 168th division: 7000 men captured/killed/lost + 3 battalions lost in Ruskaset, 18th division - 12000 men killed/captured/lost, 34th brigade - 1800 men.
Total losses of 8th army - 8100 KIA, 4971 MIA, 21723 wounded, also 7296 ill, 2797 frostbeaten - data from Russian Central Military Archive

Finnish 12th infantry division lost 1458 men killed, 3860 wounded and 220 MIA; Finnish 13th division lost 1171 KIA, 3155 WIA and 158 MIA; 64th regiment, battalions and engineer companies attached to 13th division lost 253 KIA, 762 WIA, 102 MIA.

Regards, BP

PS. Near Lemetti - http://around.spb.ru/finnish/etusivu/ta ... nkkeja.jpg
Last edited by BIGpanzer on 19 Jun 2007, 19:52, edited 1 time in total.

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#12

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Jun 2007, 08:16

BIGpanzer, thanks for the translation.
BIGpanzer wrote:Well, returning back to Finnish cases.
Veterans D. Zlatkin and T. Kattonen [Finn, served in Soviet ski battalion in 1939-1944] mentioned [interviews/memoires of 2005] several cases of murders of Soviet hospital staff and wounded men by Finnish ski diversion groups - sometimes all Soviet doctors, nurses and wounded soldiers were cruelly killed by knives of Finnish skiers, which attacked distant forest hospitals and disappeared immediately.
Hospitals - Petrovski Jam ? ( a distant relative of mine was there ) Where there others?
I think that the possible discussions about the war crimes should be continued here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &highlight

Regards, Juha

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b

#13

Post by Baltas » 19 Jun 2007, 13:20

BIGpanzer wrote:Quote:
When Soviets returned back to Lemetti after the Winter War they found horrible picture - Finns exploded and burnt all dugouts with 120 Soviet wounded soldiers, many of them were bent to their beds with steel wire, throats of several dozens soldiers were cut by knives
I vill repeat my question.This palaver from misty bilingual book.Where are sources?
I think for tittle-tattle here not place.

Regard Baltas

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#14

Post by Bair » 19 Jun 2007, 14:21

The sources are the NKVD documents published in Kuoleman DIvisioona by Gordienko. BTW, in the interview with Corporal Mauno Laaksonen from HRR who took part in battle of Lemetti, he refused speaking about the fate of the Soviet prisoners that they took in Lemetti.

regards,

Bair

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#15

Post by Baltas » 19 Jun 2007, 17:18

Bair wrote:
The sources are the NKVD documents published in Kuoleman DIvisioona by Gordienko.

Kuoleman DIvisioona what kind of writing this one:memoir, fiction book,propaganda book or maybe this one the same misty bilingual book from BIGpanzer post?and who is Gordienko scientist of history writer journalist.

Bair wrote:
The sources are the NKVD documents published in
Where we can to see that on a web?and who explored that NKVD "documents"that they are not forgery Gordienko?BTW sometimes creating fabrication participanting wel know respectable man I meant professor N.Burdenko in Katyn case.

Regard Baltas

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