Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

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Slava_M
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Post by Slava_M » 27 Jun 2007 15:29

BIGpanzer wrote:About cases of massacres of wounded men by Finns on battlefield [I found a lot of material in google as well as in Russian forums - a strong discussions with all possible proofs/disproofs from "Finnish-supporters" and "Russian-supporters" about Finns near Moscow and their cruelty]
http://www.trizna.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 574a1daf68


Do you really think that Trizna discussion forum is a good information source on this topic? :lol: Most of those "Russian-supporters" have information about Finnish army in WWII only from schoolbooks, and their arguments are based on marasmic fairytales and politruks' speeches.

Slava_M
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Petrovski Yam

Post by Slava_M » 27 Jun 2007 15:51

Some data on Soviet losses in Petrovski Yam.
Step by step.
1. From http://www.soldat.ru/hospital.html - Soviet hospitals dislocations during 1941-1945.
Íîìåð ëå÷åáíîãî ó÷ðåæäåíèÿ: 2212
Òèï ëå÷åáíîãî ó÷ðåæäåíèÿ: Ïîëåâîé ïîäâèæíîé ãîñïèòàëü
Ìåñòî äèñëîêàöèè: Ïåòðîâñêèé ßì
Ðàéîí äèñëîêàöèè: Êàðåëî-Ôèíñêàÿ ÑÑÐ
Ëå÷åáíîå ó÷ðåæäåíèå íàõîäèëîñü â ýòîì ðàéîíå ñ 05.01.1942 ïî 30.03.1942

Translation:
Number of medical institution: 2212
Medical institution class: Field Mibile Hospital
Place of dislocation: Petrovski Yam
Area of Dislocation: Karelia
Medical institution had been situated here since 05.01.1942 till 30.03.1942

2. From the database on Soviet losses in Karelia (it was in the same site http://www.soldat.ru/ for some time earlier when I'd copied it, didn't found this table at the site just now):
Dispatch on the personnel losses of Karelian Front units since February 01 till February 28 of year 1942 (specified)
...
Medvezjegorsk (Karhumäki) Operative Group
...
2212 Field Mobile Hospital
killed: 7 officers, 8 NCOs, 10 privates, wounded 3 officers, 1 NCO, 1 private
Field Veterinary Lasaret 445
killed: 1 officer, 1 NCO, 2 privates, wounded 1 private
...

(I think FVL 445 is from the same case)

So it looks like it was some fighting at the hospital, not destroying of it - in this case all the personnel should be killed by "curved Finnish knives" (Trizna forum copyright :lol: )

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 27 Jun 2007 16:04

Slava_M wrote:
BIGpanzer wrote:About cases of massacres of wounded men by Finns on battlefield [I found a lot of material in google as well as in Russian forums - a strong discussions with all possible proofs/disproofs from "Finnish-supporters" and "Russian-supporters" about Finns near Moscow and their cruelty]
http://www.trizna.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.p ... 574a1daf68


Do you really think that Trizna discussion forum is a good information source on this topic? :lol: Most of those "Russian-supporters" have information about Finnish army in WWII only from schoolbooks, and their arguments are based on marasmic fairytales and politruks' speeches.


About Finns under Moscow not all so is simple. I have a material about it with memoirs of eyewitnesses.

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Jun 2007 20:12

Slava,

Thank you very much for the detailed information.

Here a puukko/finka (not curved) & Petrovski Yam related link:
http://p092.ezboard.com/Mannerheim-Knig ... 1507.topic

Regards, Juha

Slava_M
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Post by Slava_M » 28 Jun 2007 08:20

Juha Tompuri wrote:Here a puukko/finka (not curved) & Petrovski Yam related link:
http://p092.ezboard.com/Mannerheim-Knig ... 1507.topic


Thank you for the link!

As about puukko - in the forests I usually walk with my puukko by Marttiini - more or less traditional design ob blade and grip but very simple scabbards, not fish-tail...
"The curved knife" - it is from Trizna.ru forum discussion which I scoff at above - one of "eyewitnesses" there said that Finns cut heads from everybody by their long curved knives - so he mixed up Finns with Turkish janizary :lol:

BTW - which kind of the badge Ilmari Honkanen has in his rähinnäremmi (shoulder-belt in English, may be?) Is it Er.P 4 unit badge?

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Jun 2007 11:27

Slava_M wrote:Thank you for the link!
You're welcome :)


BTW - which kind of the badge Ilmari Honkanen has in his rähinnäremmi (shoulder-belt in English, may be?) Is it Er.P 4 unit badge?
Can't say from the photo at the link...maybe someone has it larger, or other photos.

There is a book about him, maybe there?
http://www.alfamer.fi/naytatuote.asp?haku=SM653

Regards, Juha

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BIGpanzer
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Post by BIGpanzer » 28 Jun 2007 15:56

Slava_M wrote:
Do you really think that Trizna discussion forum is a good information source on this topic? Most of those "Russian-supporters" have information about Finnish army in WWII only from schoolbooks, and their arguments are based on marasmic fairytales and politruks' speeches.

I don't think that only Trizna discussion forum can provide exact and enough info, this is just one from many sources I am reading. Nevertheless, there are very different members with very different knowledge [as at AHF also :wink: ] at Trizna. Some members from "Finnish" and "Soviet"-side who use archive and modern literature data give very interesting and correct info [all info about Lemetti losses we know is mentioned at Trizna also, and the same using literature sources], other members base their info on obsolete propaganda sources indeed - this is obvious.

Regards, BP

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Harri
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Re: d

Post by Harri » 29 Jun 2007 12:24

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Harri, you saw though one Soviet archival material of military character? You worked in the Russian archives? You show weak knowledge of modern Russian sources.


Well, I have to admit my knowledge is not very good on Russian archives. :?

Perhaps the archives are quite OK but either the information or the conclusions are sometimes "handled" to support the common beliefs created during the past years. This propagandistic use of all information has additionally varied a lot depending on who is in power in Moscow. Some basic misbeliefs and fairytales are although strong and long lasting but they were/are hard take seriously anywhere else but perhaps in USSR/Russia.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Re: d

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 29 Jun 2007 12:43

Harri wrote:
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:Harri, you saw though one Soviet archival material of military character? You worked in the Russian archives? You show weak knowledge of modern Russian sources.


Well, I have to admit my knowledge is not very good on Russian archives. :?

Perhaps the archives are quite OK but either the information or the conclusions are sometimes "handled" to support the common beliefs created during the past years. This propagandistic use of all information has additionally varied a lot depending on who is in power in Moscow. Some basic misbeliefs and fairytales are although strong and long lasting but they were/are hard take seriously anywhere else but perhaps in USSR/Russia.


All fairytales are created usually by those who never worked in archives. The people responsible for propagation. If you are the fair researcher, you will always use the best sources - documents and memoirs of witnesses of time. Even during Soviet times. I saw tens fair books 1950-1970-х years.

About authority. I think authority of any country forms myths. This rule is valid both for the ex-USSR, and for Finland.

P.S.

That who speaks about closeness of Russian archives, obviously is mistaken. Some participants of our section many times happened in archives of Russia.

Regards.

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Harri
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Re: d

Post by Harri » 29 Jun 2007 14:30

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:All fairytales are created usually by those who never worked in archives. The people responsible for propagation. If you are the fair researcher, you will always use the best sources - documents and memoirs of witnesses of time. Even during Soviet times. I saw tens fair books 1950-1970-х years.


Well, to me even the "style" of the source reveals a lot. In Finland we are used to trust on people and his/her words and it is one of the "Finnish virtues". We don't like much on fairytellers even if their work would be based on "eyewittnesses" or even archive sources. In history interpretation (at least after 50 years or more) objectivity is difficult to maintain if the basic conception is (intentionally or unintentionally) wrong.

Some literal Soviet sources may be good but the censorship took care on the "correct Soviet view" in most cases. In too many cases the result differs or is too far away from what we are used to.

So, archives are not necessarily the solution for correct interpretation of history because it is always a matter of objectivity and researchers' "views" which effect more or less on the end result. Thus even the same sources seem to lead to totally different conclusions like we have seen in recent discussions.

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Kimmo
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Re: d

Post by Kimmo » 29 Jun 2007 14:43

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:If you are the fair researcher, you will always use the best sources - documents and memoirs of witnesses of time.


I really wouldn't rely completely to eye witnessess or memoirs from that time. Those are always individual observations and there isn't two similar observations made from the same event. First person makes observation A, but misses the observation B, while the second person does observation B and additionally C, but misses A.

Also I cannot understand that a lot of value has been put to veteran stories. Events which happened 60 to 70 years ago. I think modern researchers are moving away from this practise, because it is bound to contain mistakes. No one isn't going to remember accurately what happened so long time ago.

Kimmo

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Re: d

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 29 Jun 2007 15:04

Harri wrote:
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:All fairytales are created usually by those who never worked in archives. The people responsible for propagation. If you are the fair researcher, you will always use the best sources - documents and memoirs of witnesses of time. Even during Soviet times. I saw tens fair books 1950-1970-х years.


Well, to me even the "style" of the source reveals a lot. In Finland we are used to trust on people and his/her words and it is one of the "Finnish virtues". We don't like much on fairytellers even if their work would be based on "eyewittnesses" or even archive sources. In history interpretation (at least after 50 years or more) objectivity is difficult to maintain if the basic conception is (intentionally or unintentionally) wrong.

Some literal Soviet sources may be good but the censorship took care on the "correct Soviet view" in most cases. In too many cases the result differs or is too far away from what we are used to.

So, archives are not necessarily the solution for correct interpretation of history because it is always a matter of objectivity and researchers' "views" which effect more or less on the end result. Thus even the same sources seem to lead to totally different conclusions like we have seen in recent discussions.


Harri, least I wish to speak about the politician, ideology and propaganda. Any state "machine", anyhow, in history aspires to reflection of the point of view. At me is not about hundred the historical books published during Soviet time with very small share of stamps and myths. They - a valuable source of the information on operations of the Second world war.

As to the Finnish official history read, exemple, material Bekman (University of Helsinki).

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Re: d

Post by Mangrove » 29 Jun 2007 17:44

Kimmo wrote:
Alex Yeliseenko wrote:No one isn't going to remember accurately what happened so long time ago.


Well, It really depends on the people. For example Eino Eloranta could pinpoint the exact location of downed Fw-190 at Malmi Airport after 60 years! I think memoirs can be used to give an another perspective to the matter if all information can be checked from independed source.

http://www.pelastamalmi.org/fi/tiedotteet/fw-kuhlmey.html

Martti

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Juha Tompuri
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Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Jun 2007 22:55

Slava_M wrote:As about puukko - in the forests I usually walk with my puukko by Marttiini - more or less traditional design ob blade and grip but very simple scabbards, not fish-tail...
"The curved knife" - it is from Trizna.ru forum discussion which I scoff at above - one of "eyewitnesses" there said that Finns cut heads from everybody by their long curved knives - so he mixed up Finns with Turkish janizary :lol:
:)
Here a related link (including another) a while ago:
viewtopic.php?t=116588&highlight

BTW - which kind of the badge Ilmari Honkanen has in his rähinnäremmi (shoulder-belt in English, may be?) Is it Er.P 4 unit badge?[/quote] "maybe" one of these: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/sotilasmerkit/Index.html


Regards, Juha

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Post by Janne » 02 Jul 2007 11:15

Johan Bäckman is a man with a controversial reputation. FWIW he hasn't written or researched anything on war history, but he has published (by his Johan Beckman Institute) a number of books by Soviet/Russian historians and a journal (in Finnish/Russian/English) which has included some reviews and some reprints of WWII-era material, such as "Finland Without a Mask" by O.W.Kuusinen).

As always, the material isn't new or suppressed by Finnish historians or "official" Finnish history, although in the opinion of the vast majority of historians, their value as source materail is limited due to the strong influence of Soviet propaganda machine.

(As always, this is a pity, because the existence of evidence unarguably free of lies, exaggerations, mispresentations and distortions etc would be a great boost to increased mutual understanding of the historical events. This is not to say that Finnish source material of "official" history is invariably "problem-free", but at least the problems are extremely seldom of the same nature. IMHO.)

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