Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

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Slava_M
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#61

Post by Slava_M » 03 Jul 2007, 16:01

Juha Tompuri wrote:BTW - which kind of the badge Ilmari Honkanen has in his rähinnäremmi (shoulder-belt in English, may be?) Is it Er.P 4 unit badge?
"maybe" one of these: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/sotilasmerkit/Index.html
[/quote]

Thank you very much!
Very informative database!

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#62

Post by Mangrove » 27 May 2010, 17:41

Beria's report to Stalin about the losses at Lemetti can be found here, only in Finnish though.
http://www.helsinki.fi/venajaitaeuroopp ... it%208.pdf --> No. 119, pg. 54.

- 1237 men out of 3261 made it out from the southern pocket. Two hundred wounded were left behind.
- 1559 bodies were found, including 18th Division's CO Fjodorov and 34th Tank Brigade's CO Kondratjev.
- Finns recovered thirty tanks and some trucks. 48 tanks, five armored cars, 219 cars, seven tractors and twelve containers were left for the Soviets to find.


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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#63

Post by Steady » 06 Jul 2010, 14:02

Accounts of shootings of wounded soviets are very common in Finnish war stories. Normally it goes about like this:

Finns advance, and capture Soviet positions with casualties inside. Some of the "dead" turn out to be faking it, and start shooting when finns inspect the casualties. In many of the stories, one of the finns gets hit. After this finns shoot everybody twice to make sure they dont do that again.

I believe these stories are true for the most part, since stories of soviets fighting till the last breath, refusing to surrender etc. are also common.

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Panssari Salama
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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#64

Post by Panssari Salama » 07 Jul 2010, 08:48

Steady wrote:Accounts of shootings of wounded soviets are very common in Finnish war stories. Normally it goes about like this:

Finns advance, and capture Soviet positions with casualties inside. Some of the "dead" turn out to be faking it, and start shooting when finns inspect the casualties. In many of the stories, one of the finns gets hit. After this finns shoot everybody twice to make sure they dont do that again.

I believe these stories are true for the most part, since stories of soviets fighting till the last breath, refusing to surrender etc. are also common.
This has been a very interesting reading. While the details of Lemmetti encirclements cannot be known for sure, we can try to emulate the historians, as there are I believe two "schools" of them.

First school is about the exact information that can be found and be validated from the trusted archives. What can be validated is the truth. Second school is the same, except the conclusion is not the sheer facts, but thesis as what was the likeliest event that took place.

A well known example of these two schools arguing with each other is the discussion w. Heikki Ylikangas vs his opponents: how many own soldiers did the Finns execute? Ylikangas argues: likely ca. 250. His opponents argue that only the 62 (was that the number they state) is the truth and nothing but the truth.

I do not know, generally speaking I tend to think along the lines of "likeliest" history. Likely, the number of exectuted soldiers is 62 > X < 250 ?

Here is a very interesting Thesis I found from another thread in War Crimes section some time ago. I believe it is well worth the read: American Soldiers and POW Killing in the European Theatre of World war II. http://ecommons.txstate.edu/cgi/viewcon ... xt=histtad

I try to emulate the thesis. Questions as well as answers are my beliefs at the time of writing:

Did Finnish Army order executions of (at least certain elements of) Soviet Army? I have never heard they have given an order like this. This has not even been hinted anywhere?

Did certain units, at times, decide "no prisoners today"?. I believe it is likely this might have happened.

Did Soviet POWs face fatal consequences if they did not fight / surrender in "fair" manner as from the Finnish point of view? I have read several accounts of this. For example the Soviet groups of men escaping away from Raate road, met wondering lost in forests: I read that the whole group was often gunned down if one of them refused to surrender.

Was the Soviet POW hanged upside down from a tree, as he was found wearing Finnish boots? I see it likely this happened. Not a good idea to get captured wearing dead opponent's boots?

And finally: do these events darken the image of the "Good War" (from thesis), the justified war the Winter War is cosidered among Finns? Absolutely not. The more we learn, the more we can apppreciate the appaling condition people lived in the front lines.

I am sure isolated atrocities happened also in Finno-Soviet front, on both sides, although neither Army had a "no prisoner" order at any time?

As for Lemetti, the likely explanation is that the hospital bunker was destroyed among other bunkers as the battle raged on, either without realisation it was a hospital or because it was defended as any other bunker?

Mutilated bodies, ten or twenty of them? It seems plausible some individual(s) could have done that, having entered the brutalization phase discussed in the Thesis. Or propaganda? Difficult to know for sure? Then again, I've seen a picture of a captured Finn, made to walk bare foot on snow, eyes pearced via bayonets, before having been executed. if that happened, as it did for sure, it seems plausible that there were mutilated POWs in Lemetti as well? But I have seen absolutely no evidence killing POWs was a common practice by the soldiers of Finnish Army. Isolated events, yes, likely they happened in more numerous cases than what we have learned so far.

But the morale of the Finnish Army as a whole did not break at any time on a general level.

Just my laymans take on this. I am happy to learn more. Pls read the thesis before answering though, so you understand where my points come from.

(Edit: fixed some typos)
Panssari Salama - Paying homage to Avalon Hill PanzerBlitz and Panzer Leader board games from those fab '70s.

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#65

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 Jul 2011, 17:33

When Soviets returned back to Lemetti after the Winter War they found horrible picture - Finns exploded and burnt all dugouts with 120 Soviet wounded soldiers, many of them were bent to their beds with steel wire, throats of several dozens soldiers were cut by knives

This should be posted in War Crimes section I guess...

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#66

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Jul 2011, 19:34

Domen121 wrote:
When Soviets returned back to Lemetti after the Winter War they found horrible picture - Finns exploded and burnt all dugouts with 120 Soviet wounded soldiers, many of them were bent to their beds with steel wire, throats of several dozens soldiers were cut by knives

This should be posted in War Crimes section I guess...
Yes, if someone is interested in doing that.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#67

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 16 Jul 2011, 01:48

But I have seen absolutely no evidence killing POWs was a common practice by the soldiers of Finnish Army.
Finnish POW figures are quite low. Especially in all those pockets they captured surprisingly few POWs.

Maybe there was some kind of "no prisoners" policy? Shooting surrendering Russians on the spot?

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#68

Post by JAK » 16 Jul 2011, 04:04

Domen121 wrote:
But I have seen absolutely no evidence killing POWs was a common practice by the soldiers of Finnish Army.
Finnish POW figures are quite low. Especially in all those pockets they captured surprisingly few POWs.

Maybe there was some kind of "no prisoners" policy? Shooting surrendering Russians on the spot?
For what it's worth: What little I have read about the subject are comes from Finnish veterans who described that more often than not, Soviets fought to the bitter end rather than surrendered...

-Jari

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#69

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 16 Jul 2011, 12:17

Ok but it doesn't mean lack of POWs because when commander orders capitulation you have to surrender.

Not any commander of forces trapped inside the pocket decided to sign capitulation?

In 1941 campaign Germans took hundreds of thousands prisoners during just first few months of war in Russia. Mostly inside major pockets but also many POWs outside pockets in other battles. Morale collapsed or what?

Did they defend their homeland less eagerly than a small worthless piece of frozen snow & ice?

Or maybe Red Army's policy changed from "no step back" to "surrender when you have to"?

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#70

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jul 2011, 14:15

Domen121 wrote:Ok but it doesn't mean lack of POWs because when commander orders capitulation you have to surrender.

Not any commander of forces trapped inside the pocket decided to sign capitulation?
That kind of behaviour was extremely rare during the Winter War. AFAIK the great majority of the POW's Finns got were sort of "individuals".
About the issue:
Art wrote:"Voluntary abandonment of the battlefield during combat or intentional and not caused by the battle situation surrender to the enemy or the refusal to use the arm during combat entails the application of the highest measure of social defence"
Criminal Codex of RSFSR of 1926 Article 193.14
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t&start=75

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet casualties at Lemetti encirclements

#71

Post by JAK » 16 Jul 2011, 15:26

Domen121 wrote: Did they defend their homeland less eagerly than a small worthless piece of frozen snow & ice?

Or maybe Red Army's policy changed from "no step back" to "surrender when you have to"?
On both accounts i do not believe so. Certainly there was more enthusiasm in defending your own home than invading someone others. I'd say what made the difference was that in the end Soviets were able to relieve or support the surrounded troops even if there were major setbacks. Another thing that probably had effect of troops fighting so hard Soviet propaganda that demonized Finns...

Jari

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