Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter war

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AndersG
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Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter war

#1

Post by AndersG » 24 Aug 2007, 09:21

While I was reading "Sotahistoriallinen Aikakauskirja 11, 1992" (Journal of Finnish Military History), I came upon an article, Evald Laasi: Neuvostoliiton ilmavoimien hyökkäyksestä Suomeen talvisodan aikana Virossa sijaitsevista tukikohdista on page 49.

The article covers av aspect that appears not to have been covered much, ie that most of the Soviet bombers that attacked cities in Southern Finland, originated in occupied, but still said to be neutral, Estonia. This is natually a breach of Estonian neutrality long before Estonia was formally "annexed" to the Soviet Union and shows that Estonia was under complete Soviet control long before the annexation.

The author presents data from the Estonian coast-guard, who counted Soviet aircraft exting and entering Estonian airspace. He also concluded that a lot of bombs were dropped on Estonian soil because of navigational errors and also at sea because the russian Pilots were afraid of the Finnish air defences.

Cmments?

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janner
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#2

Post by janner » 24 Aug 2007, 10:14

Whilst the raids were launched from Estonia, the aircraft flew from Soviet bases established with the 'agreement' of the Estonian Government.

Thus, as I understand it, it did not breach Estonian neutrality - not that they could have done a great deal about it. As you suggest it may welll demonstrate the level of control by the Soviet Union.


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#3

Post by AndersG » 24 Aug 2007, 12:33

Yes. Estonia was as modern kids would say "owned" by the Soviet Union. I did forget to add one small thing brought up in the article: Damaged Soviet aircraft ended up landing all over Estonia. In such circumstances they are to be interned by the neutral party. This did not happen. Instead they were given assistance and were allowed to return to their soviet bases.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#4

Post by Art » 27 Aug 2007, 14:14

AndersG wrote: The article covers av aspect that appears not to have been covered much, ie that most of the Soviet bombers that attacked cities in Southern Finland, originated in occupied, but still said to be neutral, Estonia.
That's an exaggeration. The Soviet air group in Estonia (Special Aviabrigade or Special Aviation Group) consisited of a couple of the aviation regiment. It made about 5 thousands combat sorties of the overall number of 100 thousands sorties made by Soviet Airforces during the conflict. Of this number some 2000 sorties were flown for bomber attacks against rear objects of Finland. I don't rememeber exactly the corresponding number of sorties made from the Soviet territory, but it was times more greater.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#5

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Aug 2007, 21:31

Art wrote:
AndersG wrote: The article covers av aspect that appears not to have been covered much, ie that most of the Soviet bombers that attacked cities in Southern Finland, originated in occupied, but still said to be neutral, Estonia.
That's an exaggeration.
Well...
Art wrote:The Soviet air group in Estonia (Special Aviabrigade or Special Aviation Group) consisited of a couple of the aviation regiment.
-The OAG (Special Aviation Group) consisted of more than just a couple of aviation regiments.
-The OAG was not the only Soviet bomber operator at Estonia
Art wrote:...during the conflict
Winter War.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#6

Post by janner » 28 Aug 2007, 08:15

Art wrote: That's an exaggeration. The Soviet air group in Estonia (Special Aviabrigade or Special Aviation Group) consisited of a couple of the aviation regiment. It made about 5 thousands combat sorties of the overall number of 100 thousands sorties made by Soviet Airforces during the conflict. Of this number some 2000 sorties were flown for bomber attacks against rear objects of Finland. I don't rememeber exactly the corresponding number of sorties made from the Soviet territory, but it was times more greater.
Art,

I think that by using the total number of sorties rather than just those aimed at 'economic targets' skews the figures somewhat. As I understand it this thread is about attacks against cities in Southern Finland from Soviet aircraft based in Estonia. I suggest that if you are including data on other types of missions such as close air support missions on the Isthmus and the delivery of logisitic supplies to Motti bound formations, then it is misleading.

So if 2000 sorties were launched against the Finnish Rear and Estonian based regiments conducted 5000 sorties there seems to be a disconnect. For example, is the first strike on Helsinki classed as a failed Seek and Destroy mission against the Finnish Navy which dropped its munitions on the Captial on the return leg, or a deliberate attack on Helsinki?

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#7

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2007, 11:33

janner wrote: I think that by using the total number of sorties rather than just those aimed at 'economic targets' skews the figures somewhat.
You're right, of course. I've said that I didn't have the proper numbers about the attacks on the rear objects in memory, that's why I didn't provide them. The overall numbers of sorties are however usefull, because they allow to compare the scale of activity of airgroup in Estonia with the activity of airforces based on the airfields in the USSR. Now the statistics on attacks on the finnish rear objects (Number of sorties/Tonnage of dropped bombes)
Airforces of the North-West Front (from Soviet airfields) 6416/~3500 tons
OAG (Special Aviagroup from Estonia) 2603/1549 tons
Airforces of the Baltic Fleet 1157/713 tons
Totals 10176/~5800 tons
So OAG acoounted for roughly one forth of the raids on the rear of Finland.
So problem here is whether the attacks on the rear objects can be associated with the atacks against cities, for example, the considerbale numbers of sorties was made against railway stations.
So if 2000 sorties were launched against the Finnish Rear and Estonian based regiments conducted 5000 sorties there seems to be a disconnect.
In addition to 2603 bomber sorties, 786 sorties were flown by fighters in escort missions, the sum is ~3400. I don't know what the other missions of the 5200 sorties flown by OAB/OAG were, probably they were recon missions, fighter cover of the bases, etc.
For example, is the first strike on Helsinki classed as a failed Seek and Destroy mission against the Finnish Navy which dropped its munitions on the Captial on the return leg, or a deliberate attack on Helsinki?
don't know exactly. In principle it showld be classified in accordance with the target ultimately chosen - i.e. as the raid against the city.
Last edited by Art on 29 Aug 2007, 08:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#8

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2007, 11:44

Juha Tompuri wrote:-The OAG (Special Aviation Group) consisted of more than just a couple of aviation regiments.
I think one should be indulgent to the information written from memory. When it was organized it indeed consisted of a couple of regiments but then was significantly reinforced (mainly in the last month of the war).
-The OAG was not the only Soviet bomber operator at Estonia
10th AviaBrigade of the Baltic Fleet was stationed in Estonia too, when it was organized it had two squadrons of SB and one of DB-3. I don't have a certian information about the scale of its activity, abd will be grateful if somebody provides it.
Winter War.
I propose to wait untill the special linguistic section of AHF is created to continue analysis of the semantic difference between the words "war" and "conflict" there. :)

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#9

Post by Esa K » 28 Aug 2007, 14:17

Does mentioned title below contain something on the topic?

Geust,Carl-Fredrik; Tirkeltaub, Samuil & Petrov, Gennadiy: Red stars Vol. 5 : Baltic Fleet Air Force in Winter War, Tampere : Apali, 2004 ISBN: 952-5026-31-0

Best regards

Esa K

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#10

Post by AndersG » 28 Aug 2007, 15:30

The article mentions about 400 aircraft being stationed in Estonia. It also provides a map of where aircraft were situated and some statistics of aircraft lost or damaged.

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janner
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#11

Post by janner » 28 Aug 2007, 19:48

The Oxford dictionary is the useful recourse under English Law (both civil and criminal) in such matters:

con•flict noun, verb
noun /knflkt; NAmE kn/ [C, U] ~ (between A and B)| ~ (over sth)
1 a situation in which people, groups or countries are involved in a serious disagreement or argument: a conflict between two cultures The violence was the result of political and ethnic conflicts. She found herself in conflict with her parents over her future career. John often comes into conflict with his boss. The government has done nothing to resolve the conflict over nurses' pay.
2 a violent situation or period of fighting between two countries: armed / military conflict A conflict between the two countries could easily spread across the whole region.
3 a situation in which there are opposing ideas, opinions, feelings or wishes; a situation in which it is difficult to choose: The story tells of a classic conflict between love and duty. Her diary was a record of her inner conflict. Many of these ideas appear to be in conflict with each other.

war /w(r)/ noun
1 [U, C] a situation in which two or more countries or groups of people fight against each other over a period of time: the Second World War the threat of (a) nuclear war to win / lose a / the war the war between England and Scotland England’s war with / against Scotland It was the year Britain declared war on Germany. Social and political problems led to the outbreak (= the beginning) of war. Where were you living when war broke out? The government does not want to go to war (= start a war) unless all other alternatives have failed. How long have they been at war? a war hero (formal) In the Middle Ages England waged war on France. Her husband was killed during the war. More troops are being despatched to the war zone. (formal) the theatre of war (= the area in which fighting takes place)—see also warring, civil war, cold war, council of war, phoney war, post-war, prisoner of war, world war
2 [C, U] a situation in which there is aggressive competition between groups, companies, countries, etc.: the class war a trade war—see also price war
3 [U, sing.] ~ (against / on sb/sth) a fight or an effort over a long period of time to get rid of or stop sth unpleasant: The government has declared war on drug dealers. We seem to be winning the war against crime.

So according to definition 2, "conflict" does not imply that there was not a war, invasion or reduce the importance of the Winter War. As per definition 1, "war" is, however, a more formal word and, in contempory usage, implies a declaration of some kind. Happy days

:wink:

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#12

Post by AndersG » 28 Aug 2007, 21:08

"So according to definition 2, "conflict" does not imply that there was not a war, invasion or reduce the importance of the Winter War. As per definition 1, "war" is, however, a more formal word and, in contempory usage, implies a declaration of some kind."

I think that the credit for that confusion goes, to some extent, to our American friends. There the President cannot declare war, only Congress. Hence almost every military action the US has taken part in since WW3 has been called various euphemisms, like "conflict", "police action".

Nevertheless, the article was interesting and brought up some things I did not know about the war. :)

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Re: Soviet bombings, from occupied Estonia during the winter

#13

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Aug 2007, 22:46

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:-The OAG (Special Aviation Group) consisted of more than just a couple of aviation regiments.
I think one should be indulgent to the information written from memory. When it was organized it indeed consisted of a couple of regiments but then was significantly reinforced (mainly in the last month of the war).
AFAIK in the last months of the war
Art wrote:
JT wrote:-The OAG was not the only Soviet bomber operator at Estonia
10th AviaBrigade of the Baltic Fleet was stationed in Estonia too, when it was organized it had two squadrons of SB and one of DB-3. I don't have a certian information about the scale of its activity, abd will be grateful if somebody provides it.
According to the source Esa mentioned:
...The 75-aircraft strong 10 AB was now (19th Dec-39, JT) able to practically daily bomb Finnish ports in Gulf of Bothnia and the western part of Gulf of Finland (Turku, Uusikaupunki, Rauma Pori Kaskö, Kristinestad, Vaasa, Hangö, Ekenes etc.)

Art wrote: Now the statistics on attacks on the finnish rear objects (Number of sorties/Tonnage of dropped bombes)
Airforces of the North-West Front (from Soviet airfields) 6416/~3500 tons
OAG (Special Aviagroup from Estonia) 2603/1549 tons
Airforces of the Baltic Fleet 1157/713 tons
Totals 10176/~5800 tons
So OAG acoounted for roughly one forth of the raids on the rear of Finland.
But how many of the N-W Front sorties were against the South Finland?
Also...how to determine "Southern Finland"
Art wrote:
janner wrote: For example, is the first strike on Helsinki classed as a failed Seek and Destroy mission against the Finnish Navy which dropped its munitions on the Captial on the return leg, or a deliberate attack on Helsinki?
don't know exactly. In principle it showld be classified in accordance with the target ultimately choosed - i.e. as the raid against the city.
I think that the outcome matters, not the intention.
janner wrote:So according to definition 2, "conflict" does not imply that there was not a war, invasion or reduce the importance of the Winter War. As per definition 1, "war" is, however, a more formal word and, in contempory usage, implies a declaration of some kind.
Thanks :wink:
Also GPW sound better than GPC, when talking about German-Soviet relations 1941-1945
Something from the past: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ct&start=0

Regards, Juha

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#14

Post by BIGpanzer » 28 Aug 2007, 23:53

JT wrote:
Also GPW sound better than GPC, when talking about German-Soviet relations 1941-1945
:) Yes, sounds better. IIRC Russian sources describe Great Patriotic war as the war for freedom of USSR against nazi Germany and allies of Germany.
As for location of Soviet aircraft units in Estonia during the Winter [Soviet-Finnish] war and exact number of sorties against Finland from Estonian territory - I saw the good online article on Russian about this last week, need to find it again.....

Regards, BP

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#15

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Aug 2007, 08:11

Hi BP,
BP wrote:As for location of Soviet aircraft units in Estonia during the Winter [Soviet-Finnish] war and exact number of sorties against Finland from Estonian territory - I saw the good online article on Russian about this last week, need to find it again.....
That would be very interesting.

BP wrote: IIRC Russian sources describe Great Patriotic war as the war for freedom of USSR against nazi Germany and allies of Germany.
...and the list of the German allies can be found here: http://www.axishistory.com/

Regards, Juha

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