The loss figures of Tali-Ihantala

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patrik.possi
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The loss figures of Tali-Ihantala

#1

Post by patrik.possi » 03 Dec 2007, 03:13

Im wonder about the figures of losses on the finnish side is right, 1100 dead 1100 missing and 14500 wounded. The thing that make me start wonder was what ill know about the battle and losses. Acording to my grandpaa, his commpany was down to a dozen men after the battle, and one of the company in his batalion was down to 3 men. (i have not checked this, but after all he was there.) Its not a good compere, but at the battle for Suomussalmi witch only inclouded one division the Finnish death toll was 900 men.

How reliable is the figure of Finnish losses?

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Harri
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#2

Post by Harri » 03 Dec 2007, 16:22

According to a book "Veitsen terällä" [On the razor's edge] by Matti Koskimaa the total losses of the Finnish IV Army Corps (IV AK) between 25.6. - 9.7.1944 (15 days) were 8.561 men (1.101 KIA, 6.264 WIA and 1.096 MIA).

Daily losses (KIA and WIA) of the IV AK taken from a table (page 156) were as follows (about +/- 50 men or less):
25.6. - 700
26.6. - 1.000
27.6. - 450
28.6. - 1.000
29.6. - 750
30.6. - 650
1.7. - 150
2.7. - 900
3.7. - 450
4.7. - 150
5.7. - 450
6.7. - 300
7.7. - 300
8.7. - 150
9.7. - 100

These figures mean that Finns lost about one infantry battalion or even two in a day.

Between 28. - 30.6. the total strength of the Finnish troops at Tali - Ihantala defence sector hold by IV AK was about 36.300 men (Ps.D - 10.400 men, 6.D - 12.500, 11.D - 4.500, 18.D - 5.500, 3.Pr. - 3.400, supporting artillery is also included in these figures).

In other words Finnish total losses at Tali - Ihantala were between 20 and 25 % which is not a small proportion. Additionally at least hundreds of men fled from the front. Most of those missed in action were actually killed in action.


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tramonte
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Re: The loss figures of Tali-Ihantala

#3

Post by tramonte » 16 Mar 2021, 20:50

We should focus also 4.D, 2nd Border Jaeger Battalion and even some units of 20t Brigade. I checked to database of deceased soldiers of 20th Brigade and there were tens of them located in places like Juustila, Lavola etc. Besides there have been several Corps and HQ artillery etc units also. It has always puzzled me why they are giving figures of 150,000 Red Army troops in Tali-Ihantala but just around 50,000 Finns. According Ohto Manninen around 25% of 21st Army didn't take part at Battle of Ihantala at all. Especially in first days of July the rate between Finnish and Soviet forces were not 1:3 but hardly even 1:2. Some Soviet military historians are suggesting that only little bit over 60,000 Red Army soldiers took part on that battle. We also have to ask what was the Tali-Ihantala frontline? How near to Vyborg? Was sector of 3.D (Noskua) part of Tali-Ihantala? After all 3.D was division of IV Corps.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: The loss figures of Tali-Ihantala

#4

Post by Mangrove » 17 Mar 2021, 11:45

tramonte wrote:
16 Mar 2021, 20:50
We should focus also 4.D, 2nd Border Jaeger Battalion and even some units of 20t Brigade. I checked to database of deceased soldiers of 20th Brigade and there were tens of them located in places like Juustila, Lavola etc.
Here are daily reported losses (KIA/WIA/MIA) between 25 June and 9 July 1944. From Päämaja's archive (T-15702/1):

4.D
25.6 = 24/166/1 = 191
26.6 = 50/191/2 = 243
27.6 = 15/146/2 = 163
28.6 = 24/141/0 = 165
29.6 = N/A
30.6 = 17/111/2 = 130
1.7 = 13/74/0 = 87
2.7 = 6/83/8 = 97
3.7 = 14/62/1 = 77
4.7 = 6/50/0 = 56
5.7 = 3/35/0 = 38
6.7 = 4/41/1 = 46
7.7 = 7/40/0 = 47
8.7 = 3/19/0 = 22
9.7 = 1/21/0 = 22
---------------------
Total: 1384 (187 KIA, 1180 WIA and 17 MIA) without June 29th, 1944.

20.Pr
25.6 = N/A
26.6 = N/A
27.6 = N/A
28.6 = N/A
29.6 = 5/9/0 = 14
30.6 = 5/21/0 = 26
1.7 = 21/88/0 = 109
2.7 = 5/22/0 = 27
3.7 = 9/74/2 = 85
4.7 = 2/39/2 = 43
5.7 = 2/24/1 = 27
6.7 = 1/16/0 = 17
7.7 = 1/11/0 = 12
8.7 = 0/11/1 = 12
9.7 = 4/14/0 = 18
---------------------
Total: 390 (55 KIA, 329 WIA and 6 MIA) without June 25th to 28th, 1944.

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tramonte
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Re: The loss figures of Tali-Ihantala

#5

Post by tramonte » 07 Apr 2021, 07:58

The KIA and WIA ratio has been pretty high during Battle of Tali-Ihantala, around 1:6 suggesting very large share of slightly wounded soldiers. In 1941 both Finnish and German armies had 3 to 3.5 ratio.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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